10 ms·

So, SRS algorithms are such that the more you try to get the optimality, the more the returns diminish because there's significant variability in the human popu

by wenc 6y ago

So, SRS algorithms are such that the more you try to get the optimality, the more the returns diminish because there's significant variability in the human population (bias-variance tradeoff sort of applies). The Ebbinghaus curve itself is a very crude approximation. See this: https://languagelearning.stackexchange.com/questions/3757/which-srs-algorithm-yields-greatest-evidence-based-remembering https://languagelearning.stackexchange.com/questions/3757/wh... (I'm a language learner and an active user of SRS) The notion of an outdated algorithm corresponding to worse or better results to me is neither here nor there. There's evidence that the repetition interval itself is not the critical factor in retention. Empirically we know there are things that we remember with 0 repetitions (the vivid details of a traumatic event), while other things we struggle to remember even with SRS when there's no emotional connection to what is being memorized. When you're doing self-hacking, you have to understand you're working on a highly variable, complex adaptive system that defies optimality and exactness. Much of what is known are approximations.

allenu 6y ago
I’m in strong agreement with your points. It always surprises me when I read people trying to come up with a more optimal algorithm for testing one’s retention when there are so many factors out of one’s control that would influence the forgetting curve. For instance, the notion of judging your ability to recall something and providing it as input to Anki is such a gross approximation. Choosing the wrong value from 1 to 5 would affect your recall schedule considerably. In my opinion, what’s more important to a recall strategy is just pure habit. You have to practice regularly, and anything that makes the software easier to use for the long term is something that would have a greater effect than the optimality of the recall algorithm. (Incidentally this is why I’m working on a flash card app that is easier to use, to help ensure one comes back to it regularly.)
rajlego 6y ago
Have you tried SuperMemo? Intervals matter because they correlate with rep loads. The more accurate the intervals, the lower daily rep loads can be. The SuperMemo creator has spent 3 decades and collected plenty of data, it's hard to imagine that he wouldn't be able to improve on an algorithm from 1990.
- wenc 6y ago
  I admit I have not. SRS isn't my main method for learning -- I use a variety of other methods. I only use SRS for (independent and disconnected) atomic-type knowledge that I need to drill. My rep loads are generally not onerous, so it's not a problem that necessarily affects me too much. (Example: I learn through cognitive dissonance so I use it primarily to deprogram certain associations in my head. For instance, the word "oficina" looks like "office" to my English brain, but the word actually means "mechanic's workshop" in Portuguese. Or "pretender", which looks like pretend in English, actually means "intend". SRS helps me drill the Portuguese meaning into my skull. I use SRS to memorize bits of knowledge that don't fit anywhere and that are hard to create a context for.) I have looked into SuperMemo in the past because I was attracted to the prospect of a general pro-level memorization tool. I use complex pro tools all the time and was not fazed by the learning curve, but I felt the UI was, let's say, overfitted to the creator's personal preferences. It was a purely emotional decision but I knew I wouldn't use it regularly, and the best SRS tool is one that one would use over one that one would not.
  - rajlego 6y ago
    > SRS isn't my main method for learning -- I use a variety of other methods. I only use SRS for (independent and disconnected) atomic-type knowledge that I need to drill. My rep loads are generally not onerous, so it's not a problem that necessarily affects me too much. Agree. Also agree that actually using something is more important than how good it is. I just strongly object to: >outdated algorithm corresponding to worse or better results to me is neither here nor there. There's evidence that the repetition interval itself is not the critical factor in retention. claiming that algorithm does not matter, especially from people without experience actually using both. >(Example: I learn through cognitive dissonance so I use it primarily to deprogram certain associations in my head. For instance, the word "oficina" looks like "office" to my English brain, but the word actually means "mechanic's workshop" in Portuguese. Or "pretender", which looks like pretend in English, actually means "intend". SRS helps me drill the Portuguese meaning into my skull. I use SRS to memorize bits of knowledge that don't fit anywhere and that are hard to create a context for.) you look to be describing exactly interference: https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Interference https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Interference you might find 20 rules article useful for it: https://www.supermemo.com/en/archives1990-2015/articles/20rules https://www.supermemo.com/en/archives1990-2015/articles/20ru... >I have looked into SuperMemo in the past because I was attracted to the prospect of a general pro-level memorization tool. I use complex pro tools all the time and was not fazed by the learning curve, but I felt the UI was, let's say, overfitted to the creator's personal preferences. It was a purely emotional decision but I knew I wouldn't use it regularly, and the best SRS tool is one that one would use over one that one would not. That is understandable. I will say: I personally like the interface. To anyone reading this, I might seem insane but for a high-level user it just clicks and works (with few quirks here and there). Likely because I lack imagination I can't imagine how I'd make it look nicer while still maximizing usability. It is of course terrible to share with newcomers. But I've taught many people SuperMemo, I think the main issue with the UI for most people is just that you don't understand it. Once you get over that I think it's not so bad.

by wenc 6y ago

allenu 6y ago

I’m in strong agreement with your points. It always surprises me when I read people trying to come up with a more optimal algorithm for testing one’s retention when there are so many factors out of one’s control that would influence the forgetting curve. For instance, the notion of judging your ability to recall something and providing it as input to Anki is such a gross approximation. Choosing the wrong value from 1 to 5 would affect your recall schedule considerably. In my opinion, what’s more important to a recall strategy is just pure habit. You have to practice regularly, and anything that makes the software easier to use for the long term is something that would have a greater effect than the optimality of the recall algorithm. (Incidentally this is why I’m working on a flash card app that is easier to use, to help ensure one comes back to it regularly.)

rajlego 6y ago

Have you tried SuperMemo? Intervals matter because they correlate with rep loads. The more accurate the intervals, the lower daily rep loads can be. The SuperMemo creator has spent 3 decades and collected plenty of data, it's hard to imagine that he wouldn't be able to improve on an algorithm from 1990.

wenc 6y ago
I admit I have not. SRS isn't my main method for learning -- I use a variety of other methods. I only use SRS for (independent and disconnected) atomic-type knowledge that I need to drill. My rep loads are generally not onerous, so it's not a problem that necessarily affects me too much. (Example: I learn through cognitive dissonance so I use it primarily to deprogram certain associations in my head. For instance, the word "oficina" looks like "office" to my English brain, but the word actually means "mechanic's workshop" in Portuguese. Or "pretender", which looks like pretend in English, actually means "intend". SRS helps me drill the Portuguese meaning into my skull. I use SRS to memorize bits of knowledge that don't fit anywhere and that are hard to create a context for.) I have looked into SuperMemo in the past because I was attracted to the prospect of a general pro-level memorization tool. I use complex pro tools all the time and was not fazed by the learning curve, but I felt the UI was, let's say, overfitted to the creator's personal preferences. It was a purely emotional decision but I knew I wouldn't use it regularly, and the best SRS tool is one that one would use over one that one would not.
- rajlego 6y ago
  > SRS isn't my main method for learning -- I use a variety of other methods. I only use SRS for (independent and disconnected) atomic-type knowledge that I need to drill. My rep loads are generally not onerous, so it's not a problem that necessarily affects me too much. Agree. Also agree that actually using something is more important than how good it is. I just strongly object to: >outdated algorithm corresponding to worse or better results to me is neither here nor there. There's evidence that the repetition interval itself is not the critical factor in retention. claiming that algorithm does not matter, especially from people without experience actually using both. >(Example: I learn through cognitive dissonance so I use it primarily to deprogram certain associations in my head. For instance, the word "oficina" looks like "office" to my English brain, but the word actually means "mechanic's workshop" in Portuguese. Or "pretender", which looks like pretend in English, actually means "intend". SRS helps me drill the Portuguese meaning into my skull. I use SRS to memorize bits of knowledge that don't fit anywhere and that are hard to create a context for.) you look to be describing exactly interference: https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Interference https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Interference you might find 20 rules article useful for it: https://www.supermemo.com/en/archives1990-2015/articles/20rules https://www.supermemo.com/en/archives1990-2015/articles/20ru... >I have looked into SuperMemo in the past because I was attracted to the prospect of a general pro-level memorization tool. I use complex pro tools all the time and was not fazed by the learning curve, but I felt the UI was, let's say, overfitted to the creator's personal preferences. It was a purely emotional decision but I knew I wouldn't use it regularly, and the best SRS tool is one that one would use over one that one would not. That is understandable. I will say: I personally like the interface. To anyone reading this, I might seem insane but for a high-level user it just clicks and works (with few quirks here and there). Likely because I lack imagination I can't imagine how I'd make it look nicer while still maximizing usability. It is of course terrible to share with newcomers. But I've taught many people SuperMemo, I think the main issue with the UI for most people is just that you don't understand it. Once you get over that I think it's not so bad.