3 ms·
> 2) while I don't have an easy reference, a number of studies have found that even strenuous exercise before bed does not seem to impair sleep. As with everyth
by jlokier 6y ago
> 2) while I don't have an easy reference, a number of studies have found that even strenuous exercise before bed does not seem to impair sleep. As with everything sleep related there could easily be lots of individual variation but in general I don't think it usually causes trouble.
Hopefully.
These days, with all this working and staying at home, I'm sure for a lot of people their most strenuous exercise is just before going to sleep.
> In my experience, when you wake up seems to be more important for setting the circadian rhythm than when you get to sleep.
That's my experience too, however I think it is misleading, for some people, to describe circadian rhythm as a single daily clock.
In my experience it's more like:
1) There are a small number of distinct rhythms. When these are aligned, sleep is more refreshing, and they feel like one larger coherent process. When they are unaligned, sleep is less refreshing, and the awake time has a number of "different kinds of tired" intervals, as varies cycles that would ideally be during sleep occur during awake time instead. When severe, it's difficult or impossible to work during these intervals, even when getting plenty of sleep as well.
"Different kinds of tired" means things like tired muscles, or tired mind, or difficulty focusing, or poorer temperature regulation, or... Basically different processes in the body, which could all be conflated as "tired" yet are distinct from each other.
One of the most annoying is feeling very sleepy and needing to lie down, yet not falling asleep because it's the wrong kind of tired for actual sleep. After hours of that, maybe the right kind of tired will happen, at which point actual sleep happens. When these cycles are misaligned the overall process can take most or even all of the available 24 hours a day; it is very difficult to hold down a job when this is a regular occurrence.
2) The overall circadian cycle sometimes breaks up into pieces, like those 24 hour mechanical timers with a separate bit of plastic for each 15 minutes, which can be set to one long interval or more than one shorter interval.
As many other people point out, regularity is good for maintaining a strong circadian rhythm. I find that includes these multiple intervals: They seem to appreciate consistency too. I also find waking earlier/later (e.g. due to the sun, work, clocks etc) doesn't always drag the whole 24 hour cycle forward or backward; sometimes it seems to create a new interval and allow an old one to shrink or fade.
> trigger event and that once triggered is essentially irreversible
I had a trigger event which I can trace back specifically to age 15: Working on school coursework in bed in the early hours of the night. It's not really a single event so much as a time period of a few months.
Up until that point I had reasonably regular sleep.
Ever since then I suffered from essentially chaotic and unpredictable sleep times for about 20 years.
No amount of "discipline", from school, jobs etc., fixed this. It just meant I was tired, and late getting to work a lot, because the alternative is to be on time but too exhausted to be useful, a real dilemma.
Eventually after about age 35 it started getting a bit more regular. But it's not great, and I have to be very conscious about managing sleep.
A challenging aspect of this is I'm far more productive if I decide to pull an all-nighter than if I remain disciplined about sleep. I have found with great consistency that in a well-chosen all-nighter, I've often got more things sorted out than a month of regular work. It's frustrating; I would like to do that in the daytime! If I'm disciplined and avoid doing that, months can go by with only "mundane" levels of productivity, and it's disappointing knowing I'm capable of more. As a decent programmer, I'm lucky that "mundane" is still good, but it's not what I can do at my best. I'd still like to crack this problem but I haven't found a solution yet.
- joveian 6y agoWhat you say about the intervals makes sense to me, and related to rajlego's comment as well it seems like major changes in activity level or timing take some adjustment. I know what you mean about "different types of tired". It is rediculous how many different varations of being tired there are if you have serious sleep issues. I have the same thing about feeling completely exhausted and what I could only call tired but not being able to actually sleep. I have learned a bit over the years (I'm about 40) to tell when it is actually possible to sleep but I am never sure. This is the kind of thing I want to warn people about as well as the non-24 when people talk about trying unusual sleep schedules; it really can mess you up quite a lot if things go badly. I have also noticed that every few years there seems to be a significant shift in how I sleep and I've heard similar from others with various sleep issues. I suspect it might also be the case for most people and seems like it would fit well with your interval descripiton. I had at least two periods of severely disrupted sleep lasting years in my first couple of decades of life but didn't end up with non-24 until I tried free running sleep. Although thinking about it a bit more it wasn't fully free running for a longer period but more trying to advance what had become a very delated sleep schedule (mostly by means of not using an alarm clock until I was back on a schedule of sleeping during the day). It is possible it would have happened anyway in my case. And the "generally disrupted sleep" aspected that I still have due to insomnia and circadian desynchronization seems worse than the non-24 part, but still not having non-24 even with the other sleep issues would be preferrable to me. It sounds like you have a milder version of what I have. I also sometimes have noticed that I am most alert and productive not long before bed, although for me most often a similar thing happens early afternoon when I am waking up before 9 (and I personally seem to do best waking up at about 7am). My guess is that it happens before bed due to the process that keeps us alert right before bed that somehow is extended, my guess is that is related to having not previously reached a similar level of alerness earlier in the day. I have been meaning to look into that process in more detail but haven't done it yet. I've also been thinking that for me at least one of the major issues is that the process of waking up is not working correctly. When I get less sleep than usual I can these days sometimes avoid advancing my sleep schedule but not always and even not sleeping at all does not usually make it easier to get to sleep early the next day. But it does make it easier to sleep longer once I do get to sleep. Maybe once every few years or so something briefly happens in the morning right as I am waking up that feels like rapidly altering between being asleep and awake for a few seconds causing a distinct feeling and I am always much more alert than usual that day. Have you used melatonin at all? I find that oral or sublingual melatonin cause me to wake up a couple of hours after I get to sleep and not be able to get back to sleep (melatonin patches do not cause this but do not help at all getting to sleep, only staying asleep longer). This happens even if I take a small amount of melatonin a few hours before bed, meaning it should all be out of my system before I even get to sleep. I wonder if there is a "spring" aspect to the wake up mechanism such that it can be improved even before getting to sleep.