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How would it blow up in their face when Apple's customers don't care? Apple has handed over the entire operation of iCloud in China to a regime owned company,

How would it blow up in their face when Apple's customers don't care? Apple has handed over the entire operation of iCloud in China to a regime owned company, including all user data and keys (they did warn users that they were going to do that though). At the same time they do not permit side-loading, thereby handing complete control over what users are allowed to install on their devices to authoritarian regimes. This is not simply "complying with local laws" as they like to present it.

RotANobot 6y ago
> Apple has handed over the entire operation of iCloud in China to a regime owned company, including all user data and keys (they did warn users that they were going to do that though). Woah. I don’t know how I missed this news for so long.
- varjag 6y ago
  They offset that with PR over refusing cooperation with the FBI. A lot easier to be principled in the countries where the rule of law is followed.
  - hu3 6y ago
    And then Apple gave up on strongly encrypting user backups so govs can just ask nicely for iPhone users data anywhere in the world: https://www.androidcentral.com/apple-may-have-ditched-encrypted-backups-google-hasnt https://www.androidcentral.com/apple-may-have-ditched-encryp...
- m0dest 6y ago
  This is unfortunately the only way to operate an online service in China. It’s standard practice (and a legal requirement) to hand off the ownership and control of Chinese servers to a separate Chinese company. Apple has been pretty transparent about this. One could argue that Apple should have just exited the Chinese market instead of letting the local government spy on their citizens. Google has taken that position.
throw443243 6y ago
Apple followed Chinese law, and that’s why iCloud and iMessage are available in China. It’s a similar situation for Microsoft Teams and Skype. If Facebook does the same, they will be available in China too. Google tried to do it with their Project Dragonfly, but bad publicity made them stop.
- fauigerzigerk 6y ago
  Is there a Chinese law that requires all cloud services to be operated by regime owned companies? Could they not have provided that service themselves from inside China and comply with the law only to the extent necessary? Is there a law that requires them to offer iCloud at all if they want to sell their hardware there? Is there a law that requires them to ban side-loading? It seems to me that Apple is always doing a bit more than they are required to do under the law. They clearly want to stay in the good graces of those regimes, especially in China. But I do agree that the problem in general is structural and not specific to Apple. I think there should be something akin to the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act to limit what those corporations can do in other countries. There has to be a limit to their aiding and abetting human rights violations.
ghostcluster 6y ago
This is the kind of hyprocisy that chips away at a brand's hard earned reputation. You may notice it's currently the top post on Hacker News. It was also the top post on /r/Apple/ earlier today, surely a haven of some of Apple's biggest fans and customers.
- aiisjustanif 6y ago
  100% makes me what to ditch iPhones again.
dzyanis 6y ago
> How would it blow up in their face when Apple's customers don't care? It's very important to remember that a big part of Belarusian protesters work in IT and even in Apple
stale2002 6y ago
> How would it blow up in their face when Apple's customers don't care? There are multiple of different negative actions that can be taken against a company, beyond just customers refusing to buy the product. These potential actions have the ability to cause Apple, and their employees, lots of harm. For example, in America, one negative action that many people are taking against Apple is lawsuits (Apple has lots some lawsuits, in the past, and lost a bunch of money over it). But, there could be many other ways to harm Apple, beyond those examples. EX negative publicity, people or companies refusing to work with Apple, and many other things.

RotANobot 6y ago

> Apple has handed over the entire operation of iCloud in China to a regime owned company, including all user data and keys (they did warn users that they were going to do that though). Woah. I don’t know how I missed this news for so long.

varjag 6y ago
They offset that with PR over refusing cooperation with the FBI. A lot easier to be principled in the countries where the rule of law is followed.
- hu3 6y ago
  And then Apple gave up on strongly encrypting user backups so govs can just ask nicely for iPhone users data anywhere in the world: https://www.androidcentral.com/apple-may-have-ditched-encrypted-backups-google-hasnt https://www.androidcentral.com/apple-may-have-ditched-encryp...
m0dest 6y ago
This is unfortunately the only way to operate an online service in China. It’s standard practice (and a legal requirement) to hand off the ownership and control of Chinese servers to a separate Chinese company. Apple has been pretty transparent about this. One could argue that Apple should have just exited the Chinese market instead of letting the local government spy on their citizens. Google has taken that position.

throw443243 6y ago

Apple followed Chinese law, and that’s why iCloud and iMessage are available in China. It’s a similar situation for Microsoft Teams and Skype. If Facebook does the same, they will be available in China too. Google tried to do it with their Project Dragonfly, but bad publicity made them stop.

fauigerzigerk 6y ago
Is there a Chinese law that requires all cloud services to be operated by regime owned companies? Could they not have provided that service themselves from inside China and comply with the law only to the extent necessary? Is there a law that requires them to offer iCloud at all if they want to sell their hardware there? Is there a law that requires them to ban side-loading? It seems to me that Apple is always doing a bit more than they are required to do under the law. They clearly want to stay in the good graces of those regimes, especially in China. But I do agree that the problem in general is structural and not specific to Apple. I think there should be something akin to the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act to limit what those corporations can do in other countries. There has to be a limit to their aiding and abetting human rights violations.

ghostcluster 6y ago

This is the kind of hyprocisy that chips away at a brand's hard earned reputation. You may notice it's currently the top post on Hacker News. It was also the top post on /r/Apple/ earlier today, surely a haven of some of Apple's biggest fans and customers.

aiisjustanif 6y ago
100% makes me what to ditch iPhones again.

dzyanis 6y ago

> How would it blow up in their face when Apple's customers don't care? It's very important to remember that a big part of Belarusian protesters work in IT and even in Apple

stale2002 6y ago

> How would it blow up in their face when Apple's customers don't care? There are multiple of different negative actions that can be taken against a company, beyond just customers refusing to buy the product. These potential actions have the ability to cause Apple, and their employees, lots of harm. For example, in America, one negative action that many people are taking against Apple is lawsuits (Apple has lots some lawsuits, in the past, and lost a bunch of money over it). But, there could be many other ways to harm Apple, beyond those examples. EX negative publicity, people or companies refusing to work with Apple, and many other things.