12 ms·

Good sleep, good learning, good life

457 points by Malfunction92 6y ago

ferros 6y ago
FYI- there is a summary section at the end of the article if it reads too long for you.
chetangoti 6y ago
Site is down HOD. Here is https://archive.is/NLi1E https://archive.is/NLi1E
luigi23 6y ago
Regarding sleep: I wondered recently if Matthew Walker responded to the critique from here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21546850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21546850
- elric 6y ago
  He's certainly responded to a lot of reader critique on his blog: https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-responses-to-questions-from-readers/ https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-... Not sure if that covers all of it, and I'm not sure whether any of it is factually correct.
lolive 6y ago
I did not read the article (what did you expect, we are on HN ;) Anyway, my experience has been a little bit different. I would summarize it as "good life, good sleep, good learning". And yes, order matters. The fact is that recently I was completely in my midlife crisis and was at probably 50% of my mental stamina (memory loss, lack of interest, poor focus, and insomnia). I was ok with the fact that I was getting old and accepted all that as normal. Then things changed (my mortgage ended, my children went out of the primal-youth zone, I lost a really demanding job). Now things are really different. I sleep well, things seem to really get into my mind much like it used to be during my youth. I am not so sure I understand what is happening. But I definitely consider my previous state as impossible to learn anything whatever method I use. I am slowly getting out of that. And I now force me into a mental diet to avoid any unnecessary stimulus that would bring me back to my previous state. So my learning experience is that external conditions are supremely important. The method comes second. [And yes, supermemo is pretty cool]
- pleasesurfmore 6y ago
  That resonates with my own experience. I walked away from a bad relationship and my mental stamina, as you call it, improved dramatically. Memory is better, I am much more active and confident. I still have a very demanding job, so maybe I should change that as well.
  - inglor_cz 6y ago
    So much yes! One should feel happy coming home, not dreading the moment. Fortunately, my lovely wife is such a person.
  - chrisweekly 6y ago
    See also "The Happiness Equation" which boils down to "Be happy first." NOT: Hard work -> success -> happiness RATHER: Happiness -> best work -> success
    - briefcomment 6y ago
      Intuitively, I don’t doubt that, but certainly there are unhappy “successful” people right? My tentative explanation for this is that many people luck themselves into “success” and then fight tooth and nail to keep it.
      - wholinator2 6y ago
        Oh certainly! That is simply a paradigm and no paradigm can fit the whole (unless there's a better paradigm). Anyways, it depends on your definition of success. If it includes happiness then by definition no. If it's more vague then that then probably. I would define perfect success as something like improving the world and being happy about it. To that point there are definitely construction workers and nurses who hate their jobs and actively despise but still make the world a better place, are they successful? I believe your internal mental state will reflect and impact upon those around you and the things you are significant for. Does being an unhappy boss who gets great results make you not successful. The core issue lies in definitions. We could dream up a definition of success that could define any number of contradictory traits. That is for you to decide and society at large to gently guide.
ferros 6y ago
> You can compare the use of alarm clocks to smoking or eating hot dogs. Wow. That’s a big statement, surely comparing alarms to smoking is a bit much?
- dageshi 6y ago
  It is a big statement. I've personally not used an alarm clock in about 10 years, I wake up naturally. The times I do use an alarm clock I can genuinely say often make be feel ill for the rest of the day. Still, not sure it's as bad as smoking.
  - giantDinosaur 6y ago
    Given the critical importance of sleep (if you don't have enough, you die or go insane) - the default assumption should really be that anything that interrupts natural sleep/wake cycles is damaging, and we should have to prove otherwise. I mean, why not? You will notice the effects of going without it much sooner than going without food, for example. Personally, I totally buy that it could be as bad as (or even worse) than smoking. How much bad stuff has happened due to lack of sleep/quality of sleep that we just discount as due to something else entirely?
jmnicolas 6y ago
Piotr Wozniak is a fascinating guy, if you want to read more about him: https://web.archive.org/web/20150613033756/http://archive.wired.com/medtech/health/magazine/16-05/ff_wozniak?currentPage=all https://web.archive.org/web/20150613033756/http://archive.wi... Is someone using his software here?
- supersrdjan 6y ago
  When you get hooked on SuperMemo and embrace the idea of incremental reading, it becomes the primary software on your computer. You end up spending more time in SM than you do in the browser. People use it not just to memorize flashcards, but to read articles and books... even to write and edit their own articles and books... track their sleep... plan and execute their daily schedule... keep track of tasks and priorities. It's a quirky piece of software but quite a mature one. After all, it has been in continuous development since the late eighties! Oh there's a small but thriving community of SuperMemo users that sprang up recently. Here's a Youtube channel created by members of this community to help new users: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMdkN_8gHPn5vlYDe2ScrxQ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMdkN_8gHPn5vlYDe2ScrxQ
  - qznc 6y ago
    Sounds like Emacs. Does it have a Lisp inside? Can it send email yet?
    - rajlego 6y ago
      Funnily enough, you can use it to process email (which I have tried, and used): http://super-memory.com/help/e-mail.htm http://super-memory.com/help/e-mail.htm
joveian 6y ago
There is a lot of info here and much I agree with but without reading the whole thing a few things I noticed that I disagree with: 1) the fatal result of rats being tortured to deprive them of sleep seems to have been traced to oxidative stress in the gut (there was an article on this here not that long ago) 2) while I don't have an easy reference, a number of studies have found that even strenuous exercise before bed does not seem to impair sleep. As with everything sleep related there could easily be lots of individual variation but in general I don't think it usually causes trouble. 3) the author seems to consider free running sleep entirely posistive, however I think it is likely to cause circadian issues in a number of people who try it and may be quite dangerous. I think in my case going from a sleep deprived state to free running sleep (in an attempt to deal with insomnia) induced non-24 (it may be that non-24 has both a genetic susceptibility and a trigger event and that once triggered is essentially irreversible). In my case it also seems that there is an issue with internal coherence of the circadian rhythm with different parts of my body proceeding on different scheduled and rarely synchronized, leaving me disabled with memory issues and fatigue. So I encourage everyone to be careful when making changes to sleep schedules. For someone who already has a circadian issue it seems often better to sleep on the delayed or shifting schedule, but few people can do that without significant disruption caused by interacting with the rest of the world and there may still be some issues, at least for some people, due to being awake at night. 4) I think alarm clocks can in some cases keep a healthy circadian rhythm synchonized with the sun. Maybe consider them more like a prescription medication than smoking, try to avoid if possible but if using one can help you keep a healthy circadian rhythm then it seems likely to be healthier than a disrupted circadian rhythm. In my experience, when you wake up seems to be more important for setting the circadian rhythm than when you get to sleep.
- kossTKR 6y ago
  I don't think there is anything natural about such a rigid "circadian rhythm". Its a leftover from feudal / agricultural society where you had to get up to do different things on the farm _all day_ until you where so tired you crashed and slept for 8 hours. Nothing natural in that. I totally agree that "getting up early" can have its benefits, and so can an uninterrupted 7 hours - but the body is built to get up in the middle of the night, do stuff, then go back to bed, get up again, scavenge, build, talk to someone, then take a nap with your family/tribe etc. As long as you follow the inner rhythm, and can zone-out and relax, you are probably most healthy going through various states multiple times a day, from intense focus, to alert, to way more relaxed than anyone are today. This is in stark contrast to the toxically over-caffeinated over exerted extremely long days where you never really go through any different "mindstates" but just "plough through" until you crash - and then think that you need 8 hours and to get up early - no you only need that because you are abusing your body. Also you are missing out on so many states that make life worth living, ie the liminal hypnagogic state, the absolutely magical hypnopompic state, wonderful actual alpha-brain relaxation etc. This is also why people become sad, superficial, loose connection to the magic of existence and ultimately become sociopaths constantly seeking superficial hits because they have no space or time for the liminal states.
roel_v 6y ago
It's been a while since there have been posts on Supermemo here (meta: I miss the times when HN was mostly about bootstrapping software businesses, nootropics and self hacking), so I'm wondering - are there people who (still) use Supermemo or similar software for actual learning, and not memorizing for its own sake, as a party trick basically (which I feel is its main use case, at least in the way it's in the news)? Are there any advances in this field, new methods, new implementations of existing methods?
- sradman 6y ago
  The SuperMemo algorithms [1] have been re-implemented in more modern software such as Anki [2]. These systems are popular for goal oriented learning like studying for a test or learning a new language. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperMemo#Algorithms https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperMemo#Algorithms [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anki_(software) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anki_(software)
  - bd_beats 6y ago
    Anki's SRS algotihm is based on SM2 and is woefully outdated in comparison to SM's SRS algo. Additionally SM is much more feature rich once you get into incremental reading and fully optimizing your learning experience. Sure the UI isn't a nice flashy Electron.js app, but SM is a titan compared the terminate that is Anki.
    - sradman 6y ago
      I was thinking of platform support [1]: > The method is available as a computer program for Windows, Windows CE, Windows Mobile, (Pocket PC), Palm OS (PalmPilot), etc. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperMemo https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperMemo
      - rajlego 6y ago
        Yeah, that's definitely a problem. I will say though, if you use a VM you can get a not too bad experience on both mac and linux (I've tried both and found it usable enough for daily use).
maverickJ 6y ago
Sleep is incredibly important for forming new connections in the brain. I just want to add another aspect of learning; The importance of focus. I will start by saying: "Do not engage the mind in the intense pursuit of too many things at once; especially things that have no relation to one another" A couple of questions that can help for solve the above issue are: 1.How many subjects am I currently learning intensely? 2.Do these subjects have any relation to each other? 3.Why am I currently learning the subjects? 4.Have I truly made progress in any of the subjects? By following the four questions above, you get a sense of what you really need to learn at a particular time. This article https://leveragethoughts.substack.com/p/do-not-engage-the-mind-in-the-intense https://leveragethoughts.substack.com/p/do-not-engage-the-mi... goes in-depth into the why and how of learning. There are other tools that can contribute to a good life. Some of these tools are 1. Journalling. 2. Daily self reflection. 3. Some form of physical activity. You can find out more on how to improve the mind in https://leveragethoughts.substack.com/p/three-actionable-insights-to-improve https://leveragethoughts.substack.com/p/three-actionable-ins...
- jmnicolas 6y ago
  > "Do not engage the mind in the intense pursuit of too many things at once; especially things that have no relation to one another" The author "incremental reading" technique directly contradicts this. I don't know who's right though. Here is a YT video of him watching a couple seconds of dozens of YT videos to extract knowledge : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOJyO7QDEX4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOJyO7QDEX4 I'll admit it seems absolutely counter intuitive!
  - rajlego 6y ago
    I would say, op is right when learning by hand. Managing more than say 3 books at once or more than 1-3 subjects is impossible. Tackling too many things at once is easy recipe for madness. (these numbers are vague estimates and not from experience; I have near 0 non-supermemo decent learning experience) When it comes to SuperMemo though, you're not managing learning. You more put in what you want to learn, push a lever or two (priority/intervals) and supermemo takes care of the rest. SuperMemo is way less stressful than normal learning because when you use it and are doing reps, you can focus as much as you want on what's in front of you and move on when you want to. The costs of switching between things are near 0 since you'll always see the thing again (unless you decide not to). For working on more than 1 project at once, I think that's pushing it though with incremental writing (https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Incremental_writing https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Incremental_writing) it becomes more feasible to work on multiple things in parallel incrementally (also enjoyably).
otar 6y ago
TL;DR: No alarm clock. Follow needs of your body, sleep as much as you need. Free running sleep has no alternative. It's been a while when I first read this excellent article, I always try to follow the advice about free running sleep since then.
- mrmonkeyman 6y ago
  Lol. Transporting back to reality in 1.. 2..
sradman 6y ago
This is a 2018 eBook on sleep by Piotr Woźniak [1], a researcher involved in the Spaced Repetition [2] learning system SuperMemo [3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piotr_Woźniak_(researcher) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piotr_Woźniak_(researcher) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaced_repetition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaced_repetition [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperMemo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperMemo
shekharshan 6y ago
TL;DR! For me, I can always fall asleep within 5-10 minutes of lying down. However on some nights I wake up EXACTLY between 3-4 hours fully energized as if I had 7-8 hours of sleep. Then going back to sleep becomes a problem. This typically happens if I stay on my laptop after 8 pm and particularly if I spend time coding after 8 pm. I am a morning person.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Smithalicious 6y ago
This article is full of pie in the sky things that are impossible for normal people needing to earn a living. > do not wake up kids for school; if they cannot wake up in time, let them skip a class or two, or consider homeschooling This, for instance, is entirely illegal (at least in my country, The Netherlands).
- rajlego 6y ago
  I think that's one of the things I find most appealing about his writings in general. Most people don't go to global optima solutions because there are various constraints while Woz just does not bother. These suggestions cannot be taken to their conclusions in many cases but I think they are still good inspiration to try.
  - Smithalicious 6y ago
    It'd be a lot better if the article wasn't filled with ad nauseam scaremongering about how poor sleep causes every form of human suffering if not outright death. Many of his suggestions are simply not actionable to many people in the strongest sense of the term. Letting children sleep longer is simply not legal in (I assume) most jurisdictions. He mentions off-hand that co-sleeping is not recommended by most pediatricians but fails to mention that the risk associated with co-sleeping is death. Free sleeping is simply not possible for those who need to be at work in the mornings. This article essentially amounts to a fire-and-brimstone sermon full of questionable statements, things that run directly contrary to established science, and poor argumentation and use of sources; it is also an order of magnitude too long for even the most patient reader. Truly a shame, because I think there's actually a lot of useful ideas and information there, but they are very hard to separate from the scaremongering and pseudoscience.
    - lupin3ken 6y ago
      > This article essentially amounts to a fire-and-brimstone sermon full of questionable statements, things that run directly contrary to established science, and poor argumentation and use of sources Which claims run contrary to established science? Are the claims you mention that are established agreed upon unanimously, or are there multiple models comprised of competing evidence?
kqr 6y ago
My main takeaway from reading this a year ago is different than what most people have focused on in the comments so far. In my current life situation, lack of alarm clock (in the shape of an infant) and free running sleep are simply not possible. However, this article does highlight the importance and naturalness of a mid-day nap. When reading this I started practising mid-day naps at my desk, but I never really learned to do it until other things got in the way and I started forgetting about it. Maybe I should try again. At the very least, I encourage anyone to stand up for the right to take a mid-day nap, even if you don't personally use that right. If you feel like you could use a nap, napping is probably the responsible thing to do. If we defend that position with evidence, maybe we can slowly change the culture at work to not look down upon it.
- rajlego 6y ago
  naps are AWESOME. Woz claims somewhere that without naps, his brain is at 60% or somesuch second half of day. Same for me (likely even worse since I usually don't get enough night sleep). One reason I never want to work for a normal company is that I wouldn't be able to take naps. Not sure how I'd survive that. One note for anyone reading this wanting to try naps: the timing matters a lot. Woz recommends napping around 7-8 hours from waking, NOT at a fixed time of day. (https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Best_time_for_napping https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Best_time_for_napping). There's lots of individual variance meaning it requires experimentation. For me, I usually take a nap between 5-7 hours from waking. If you use supermemo/are interested in it, it has a thing called sleepchart (https://supermemo.guru/wiki/SleepChart https://supermemo.guru/wiki/SleepChart) in which you can log sleep data and then see some cool graphs spit out (if you also use supermemo for learning, you can very cooly see correlations between sleep and repetition grades).
  - jmnicolas 6y ago
    > One reason I never want to work for a normal company is that I wouldn't be able to take naps. It depends on the culture: I work for an absolutely normal company in France (I'm the sole dev) and at noon I go home (10 min drive) cook my meal and eat leisurely, then get a 30 minutes nap and go back to work at 2 PM. Pay isn't great, but quality of life is high.
matthewh806 6y ago
You should probably add good server to that list...
- sabujp 6y ago
  https://web.archive.org/web/20180928130701/https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Good_sleep,_good_learning,_good_life https://web.archive.org/web/20180928130701/https://supermemo...
bhargav 6y ago
This page has been archived by the Wayback machine if folks are having issues accessing the mediawiki: https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Good_sleep,_good_learning,_good_life#Lark-owl_misconception https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Go...
x87678r 6y ago
After covid hit I'm having trouble sleeping too much. I'm doing 9 hours a night and occasional 1 hr nap after lunch, I feel my metabolism is slowing down and I'm putting on weight. I've started doing more aerobic exercise and it just makes me need my after lunch nap.
- gchamonlive 6y ago
  What helped me was to reduce the carbohydrates intake after noon and to drink more water. That helped a bit with my sleeping habit. But it has been really hot and that makes it that much more difficult to have a good night of sleep.
- mtgx 6y ago
  Try lowering carbs in your foods. Drop sodas, alcohol, sweets and snacks. Don't add sugar to your coffee or tea. First 2 weeks will be a bit difficult and you'll see just how addictive those things are, but after that you'll be fine without them and feel better.
muzani 6y ago
This has been one of my favourite articles for years, on the reading list, but never had the time to fully read such a behemoth. Some stuff I got out of this: 1. The ideal sleep pattern is sleeping when tired and walking up without an alarm. 2. Biphasic is recommended. Homeostatic is how easy it is to initiate sleep, circadian is how easy it is to maintain it. Circadian cycle is usually nightly, homeostatic peaks with fatigue. It's easy to have a 20 min midday nap but hard to do a midnight one. 3. Brainwork is great as soon as you wake up, and if you need caffiene, this is the time for it. Bundle stress and exercise and keep it away from the night. Take note this is all theory and not practical, and the author hints that society should follow these and not the other way around. It took me half a decade to find a way to fit it, and what I did was: A. Force myself to wake real early, about 4 AM. You will feel horrible for a week, but it moves your circadian rhythm forward to wake and sleep naturally without an alarm. B. Naps in the car at lunch. Waking early gave more time to cook, which means packed meals are done in half an hour, followed by a quick nap. I set an alarm but never need it. Exercise is easy; a quick run and a lot of strong deodorant.
- zemvpferreira 6y ago
  I remember reading the article a few years ago (unfortunately down right now) and being struck at both how erudite and impractical it is. These days I find it even more of the later. My biggest pet peeve is that it ignores the role technology (in the form of artificial light and comfortable indoor space) completely subverts our natural sleep cycle. It's a lost battle. Better to accept that we're in an artificial state our whole lives and do our best to adapt to it. What I'm trying right now is a good melatonin supplement every night to counteract the unnantural stimulus, plus a magnesium supplement, and a lot of daytime exercise. This routine has gotten me from 6 hours of anxious sleep to 8-9 hours per night plus the occasional nap. And I feel great.
  - DjiboutiJon 6y ago
    I think it is great you found something that works for you. The main point of both your comment + the article (which, I also haven't been able to read yet) is that you need to find what works for you by trying things. Personally, melotonin only gives me 6 hours of sound sleep (many times I have tried to get more, last night being one of them). But in 6 hours from sleeping almost like clockwork I will be awake- and quite wide awake. It ususally takes another hour to fall back asleep, or sometimes I just decide to be awake. So personally, moving towards the no-supplement tact is appealing even if it is much harder in artificial environments.
biolurker1 6y ago
The section about not sleeping being lethal should be changed. First I talks about rats, secondly it's lethal for insomnia sufferers cause it makes them extremely scared and afraid of not sleeping (I'm obviously in this group).
slothtrop 6y ago
An influential oldie. This has more up-to-date research to back it up, but references that article - https://insomniasos.net/ https://insomniasos.net/ . Plus it isn't broken.
sabujp 6y ago
mirror : https://web.archive.org/web/20180928130701/https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Good_sleep,_good_learning,_good_life https://web.archive.org/web/20180928130701/https://supermemo...
sabujp 6y ago
all this is good and doable if you don't have kids or have a job (or are just retired) where you set your own schedule
ValentineC 6y ago
If the site is down for anyone else, I found a version that has split the chapters into separate pages here: https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Science_of_sleep https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Science_of_sleep
throw14082020 6y ago
Wow, that website is great. Thanks! It goes over learning/ schooling as well. I'd be interested to see how innovators are trying to solve the "10 mortal sins of schooling" or 50 bad habits learned at school.
- rajlego 6y ago
  Are you familiar with democratic schools or sudburry schools? They give children near complete freedom and are basically the answer to schooling issues. Unfortunately, they seem to have not spread too widely for issues I don't understand (likely funding and lack of understanding of learning from adults).
blarg1 6y ago
If anyone wants an easy way to wake up early, go camping. You are forced to go to bed early once it gets dark, and once it's morning even if you're tired, it's too bright to sleep in.

457 points by Malfunction92 6y ago

ferros 6y ago

FYI- there is a summary section at the end of the article if it reads too long for you.

chetangoti 6y ago

Site is down HOD. Here is https://archive.is/NLi1E https://archive.is/NLi1E

luigi23 6y ago

Regarding sleep: I wondered recently if Matthew Walker responded to the critique from here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21546850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21546850

elric 6y ago
He's certainly responded to a lot of reader critique on his blog: https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-responses-to-questions-from-readers/ https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-... Not sure if that covers all of it, and I'm not sure whether any of it is factually correct.

lolive 6y ago

I did not read the article (what did you expect, we are on HN ;) Anyway, my experience has been a little bit different. I would summarize it as "good life, good sleep, good learning". And yes, order matters. The fact is that recently I was completely in my midlife crisis and was at probably 50% of my mental stamina (memory loss, lack of interest, poor focus, and insomnia). I was ok with the fact that I was getting old and accepted all that as normal. Then things changed (my mortgage ended, my children went out of the primal-youth zone, I lost a really demanding job). Now things are really different. I sleep well, things seem to really get into my mind much like it used to be during my youth. I am not so sure I understand what is happening. But I definitely consider my previous state as impossible to learn anything whatever method I use. I am slowly getting out of that. And I now force me into a mental diet to avoid any unnecessary stimulus that would bring me back to my previous state. So my learning experience is that external conditions are supremely important. The method comes second. [And yes, supermemo is pretty cool]

pleasesurfmore 6y ago
That resonates with my own experience. I walked away from a bad relationship and my mental stamina, as you call it, improved dramatically. Memory is better, I am much more active and confident. I still have a very demanding job, so maybe I should change that as well.
- inglor_cz 6y ago
  So much yes! One should feel happy coming home, not dreading the moment. Fortunately, my lovely wife is such a person.
- chrisweekly 6y ago
  See also "The Happiness Equation" which boils down to "Be happy first." NOT: Hard work -> success -> happiness RATHER: Happiness -> best work -> success
  - briefcomment 6y ago
    Intuitively, I don’t doubt that, but certainly there are unhappy “successful” people right? My tentative explanation for this is that many people luck themselves into “success” and then fight tooth and nail to keep it.
    - wholinator2 6y ago
      Oh certainly! That is simply a paradigm and no paradigm can fit the whole (unless there's a better paradigm). Anyways, it depends on your definition of success. If it includes happiness then by definition no. If it's more vague then that then probably. I would define perfect success as something like improving the world and being happy about it. To that point there are definitely construction workers and nurses who hate their jobs and actively despise but still make the world a better place, are they successful? I believe your internal mental state will reflect and impact upon those around you and the things you are significant for. Does being an unhappy boss who gets great results make you not successful. The core issue lies in definitions. We could dream up a definition of success that could define any number of contradictory traits. That is for you to decide and society at large to gently guide.

ferros 6y ago

> You can compare the use of alarm clocks to smoking or eating hot dogs. Wow. That’s a big statement, surely comparing alarms to smoking is a bit much?

dageshi 6y ago
It is a big statement. I've personally not used an alarm clock in about 10 years, I wake up naturally. The times I do use an alarm clock I can genuinely say often make be feel ill for the rest of the day. Still, not sure it's as bad as smoking.
- giantDinosaur 6y ago
  Given the critical importance of sleep (if you don't have enough, you die or go insane) - the default assumption should really be that anything that interrupts natural sleep/wake cycles is damaging, and we should have to prove otherwise. I mean, why not? You will notice the effects of going without it much sooner than going without food, for example. Personally, I totally buy that it could be as bad as (or even worse) than smoking. How much bad stuff has happened due to lack of sleep/quality of sleep that we just discount as due to something else entirely?

jmnicolas 6y ago

Piotr Wozniak is a fascinating guy, if you want to read more about him: https://web.archive.org/web/20150613033756/http://archive.wired.com/medtech/health/magazine/16-05/ff_wozniak?currentPage=all https://web.archive.org/web/20150613033756/http://archive.wi... Is someone using his software here?

supersrdjan 6y ago
When you get hooked on SuperMemo and embrace the idea of incremental reading, it becomes the primary software on your computer. You end up spending more time in SM than you do in the browser. People use it not just to memorize flashcards, but to read articles and books... even to write and edit their own articles and books... track their sleep... plan and execute their daily schedule... keep track of tasks and priorities. It's a quirky piece of software but quite a mature one. After all, it has been in continuous development since the late eighties! Oh there's a small but thriving community of SuperMemo users that sprang up recently. Here's a Youtube channel created by members of this community to help new users: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMdkN_8gHPn5vlYDe2ScrxQ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMdkN_8gHPn5vlYDe2ScrxQ
- qznc 6y ago
  Sounds like Emacs. Does it have a Lisp inside? Can it send email yet?
  - rajlego 6y ago
    Funnily enough, you can use it to process email (which I have tried, and used): http://super-memory.com/help/e-mail.htm http://super-memory.com/help/e-mail.htm

joveian 6y ago

There is a lot of info here and much I agree with but without reading the whole thing a few things I noticed that I disagree with: 1) the fatal result of rats being tortured to deprive them of sleep seems to have been traced to oxidative stress in the gut (there was an article on this here not that long ago) 2) while I don't have an easy reference, a number of studies have found that even strenuous exercise before bed does not seem to impair sleep. As with everything sleep related there could easily be lots of individual variation but in general I don't think it usually causes trouble. 3) the author seems to consider free running sleep entirely posistive, however I think it is likely to cause circadian issues in a number of people who try it and may be quite dangerous. I think in my case going from a sleep deprived state to free running sleep (in an attempt to deal with insomnia) induced non-24 (it may be that non-24 has both a genetic susceptibility and a trigger event and that once triggered is essentially irreversible). In my case it also seems that there is an issue with internal coherence of the circadian rhythm with different parts of my body proceeding on different scheduled and rarely synchronized, leaving me disabled with memory issues and fatigue. So I encourage everyone to be careful when making changes to sleep schedules. For someone who already has a circadian issue it seems often better to sleep on the delayed or shifting schedule, but few people can do that without significant disruption caused by interacting with the rest of the world and there may still be some issues, at least for some people, due to being awake at night. 4) I think alarm clocks can in some cases keep a healthy circadian rhythm synchonized with the sun. Maybe consider them more like a prescription medication than smoking, try to avoid if possible but if using one can help you keep a healthy circadian rhythm then it seems likely to be healthier than a disrupted circadian rhythm. In my experience, when you wake up seems to be more important for setting the circadian rhythm than when you get to sleep.

kossTKR 6y ago
I don't think there is anything natural about such a rigid "circadian rhythm". Its a leftover from feudal / agricultural society where you had to get up to do different things on the farm _all day_ until you where so tired you crashed and slept for 8 hours. Nothing natural in that. I totally agree that "getting up early" can have its benefits, and so can an uninterrupted 7 hours - but the body is built to get up in the middle of the night, do stuff, then go back to bed, get up again, scavenge, build, talk to someone, then take a nap with your family/tribe etc. As long as you follow the inner rhythm, and can zone-out and relax, you are probably most healthy going through various states multiple times a day, from intense focus, to alert, to way more relaxed than anyone are today. This is in stark contrast to the toxically over-caffeinated over exerted extremely long days where you never really go through any different "mindstates" but just "plough through" until you crash - and then think that you need 8 hours and to get up early - no you only need that because you are abusing your body. Also you are missing out on so many states that make life worth living, ie the liminal hypnagogic state, the absolutely magical hypnopompic state, wonderful actual alpha-brain relaxation etc. This is also why people become sad, superficial, loose connection to the magic of existence and ultimately become sociopaths constantly seeking superficial hits because they have no space or time for the liminal states.

roel_v 6y ago

It's been a while since there have been posts on Supermemo here (meta: I miss the times when HN was mostly about bootstrapping software businesses, nootropics and self hacking), so I'm wondering - are there people who (still) use Supermemo or similar software for actual learning, and not memorizing for its own sake, as a party trick basically (which I feel is its main use case, at least in the way it's in the news)? Are there any advances in this field, new methods, new implementations of existing methods?

sradman 6y ago
The SuperMemo algorithms [1] have been re-implemented in more modern software such as Anki [2]. These systems are popular for goal oriented learning like studying for a test or learning a new language. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperMemo#Algorithms https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperMemo#Algorithms [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anki_(software) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anki_(software)
- bd_beats 6y ago
  Anki's SRS algotihm is based on SM2 and is woefully outdated in comparison to SM's SRS algo. Additionally SM is much more feature rich once you get into incremental reading and fully optimizing your learning experience. Sure the UI isn't a nice flashy Electron.js app, but SM is a titan compared the terminate that is Anki.
  - sradman 6y ago
    I was thinking of platform support [1]: > The method is available as a computer program for Windows, Windows CE, Windows Mobile, (Pocket PC), Palm OS (PalmPilot), etc. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperMemo https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperMemo
    - rajlego 6y ago
      Yeah, that's definitely a problem. I will say though, if you use a VM you can get a not too bad experience on both mac and linux (I've tried both and found it usable enough for daily use).

maverickJ 6y ago

Sleep is incredibly important for forming new connections in the brain. I just want to add another aspect of learning; The importance of focus. I will start by saying: "Do not engage the mind in the intense pursuit of too many things at once; especially things that have no relation to one another" A couple of questions that can help for solve the above issue are: 1.How many subjects am I currently learning intensely? 2.Do these subjects have any relation to each other? 3.Why am I currently learning the subjects? 4.Have I truly made progress in any of the subjects? By following the four questions above, you get a sense of what you really need to learn at a particular time. This article https://leveragethoughts.substack.com/p/do-not-engage-the-mind-in-the-intense https://leveragethoughts.substack.com/p/do-not-engage-the-mi... goes in-depth into the why and how of learning. There are other tools that can contribute to a good life. Some of these tools are 1. Journalling. 2. Daily self reflection. 3. Some form of physical activity. You can find out more on how to improve the mind in https://leveragethoughts.substack.com/p/three-actionable-insights-to-improve https://leveragethoughts.substack.com/p/three-actionable-ins...

jmnicolas 6y ago
> "Do not engage the mind in the intense pursuit of too many things at once; especially things that have no relation to one another" The author "incremental reading" technique directly contradicts this. I don't know who's right though. Here is a YT video of him watching a couple seconds of dozens of YT videos to extract knowledge : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOJyO7QDEX4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOJyO7QDEX4 I'll admit it seems absolutely counter intuitive!
- rajlego 6y ago
  I would say, op is right when learning by hand. Managing more than say 3 books at once or more than 1-3 subjects is impossible. Tackling too many things at once is easy recipe for madness. (these numbers are vague estimates and not from experience; I have near 0 non-supermemo decent learning experience) When it comes to SuperMemo though, you're not managing learning. You more put in what you want to learn, push a lever or two (priority/intervals) and supermemo takes care of the rest. SuperMemo is way less stressful than normal learning because when you use it and are doing reps, you can focus as much as you want on what's in front of you and move on when you want to. The costs of switching between things are near 0 since you'll always see the thing again (unless you decide not to). For working on more than 1 project at once, I think that's pushing it though with incremental writing (https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Incremental_writing https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Incremental_writing) it becomes more feasible to work on multiple things in parallel incrementally (also enjoyably).

otar 6y ago

TL;DR: No alarm clock. Follow needs of your body, sleep as much as you need. Free running sleep has no alternative. It's been a while when I first read this excellent article, I always try to follow the advice about free running sleep since then.

mrmonkeyman 6y ago
Lol. Transporting back to reality in 1.. 2..

sradman 6y ago

This is a 2018 eBook on sleep by Piotr Woźniak [1], a researcher involved in the Spaced Repetition [2] learning system SuperMemo [3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piotr_Woźniak_(researcher) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piotr_Woźniak_(researcher) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaced_repetition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaced_repetition [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperMemo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperMemo

shekharshan 6y ago

TL;DR! For me, I can always fall asleep within 5-10 minutes of lying down. However on some nights I wake up EXACTLY between 3-4 hours fully energized as if I had 7-8 hours of sleep. Then going back to sleep becomes a problem. This typically happens if I stay on my laptop after 8 pm and particularly if I spend time coding after 8 pm. I am a morning person.

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Smithalicious 6y ago

This article is full of pie in the sky things that are impossible for normal people needing to earn a living. > do not wake up kids for school; if they cannot wake up in time, let them skip a class or two, or consider homeschooling This, for instance, is entirely illegal (at least in my country, The Netherlands).

rajlego 6y ago
I think that's one of the things I find most appealing about his writings in general. Most people don't go to global optima solutions because there are various constraints while Woz just does not bother. These suggestions cannot be taken to their conclusions in many cases but I think they are still good inspiration to try.
- Smithalicious 6y ago
  It'd be a lot better if the article wasn't filled with ad nauseam scaremongering about how poor sleep causes every form of human suffering if not outright death. Many of his suggestions are simply not actionable to many people in the strongest sense of the term. Letting children sleep longer is simply not legal in (I assume) most jurisdictions. He mentions off-hand that co-sleeping is not recommended by most pediatricians but fails to mention that the risk associated with co-sleeping is death. Free sleeping is simply not possible for those who need to be at work in the mornings. This article essentially amounts to a fire-and-brimstone sermon full of questionable statements, things that run directly contrary to established science, and poor argumentation and use of sources; it is also an order of magnitude too long for even the most patient reader. Truly a shame, because I think there's actually a lot of useful ideas and information there, but they are very hard to separate from the scaremongering and pseudoscience.
  - lupin3ken 6y ago
    > This article essentially amounts to a fire-and-brimstone sermon full of questionable statements, things that run directly contrary to established science, and poor argumentation and use of sources Which claims run contrary to established science? Are the claims you mention that are established agreed upon unanimously, or are there multiple models comprised of competing evidence?

kqr 6y ago

My main takeaway from reading this a year ago is different than what most people have focused on in the comments so far. In my current life situation, lack of alarm clock (in the shape of an infant) and free running sleep are simply not possible. However, this article does highlight the importance and naturalness of a mid-day nap. When reading this I started practising mid-day naps at my desk, but I never really learned to do it until other things got in the way and I started forgetting about it. Maybe I should try again. At the very least, I encourage anyone to stand up for the right to take a mid-day nap, even if you don't personally use that right. If you feel like you could use a nap, napping is probably the responsible thing to do. If we defend that position with evidence, maybe we can slowly change the culture at work to not look down upon it.

rajlego 6y ago
naps are AWESOME. Woz claims somewhere that without naps, his brain is at 60% or somesuch second half of day. Same for me (likely even worse since I usually don't get enough night sleep). One reason I never want to work for a normal company is that I wouldn't be able to take naps. Not sure how I'd survive that. One note for anyone reading this wanting to try naps: the timing matters a lot. Woz recommends napping around 7-8 hours from waking, NOT at a fixed time of day. (https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Best_time_for_napping https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Best_time_for_napping). There's lots of individual variance meaning it requires experimentation. For me, I usually take a nap between 5-7 hours from waking. If you use supermemo/are interested in it, it has a thing called sleepchart (https://supermemo.guru/wiki/SleepChart https://supermemo.guru/wiki/SleepChart) in which you can log sleep data and then see some cool graphs spit out (if you also use supermemo for learning, you can very cooly see correlations between sleep and repetition grades).
- jmnicolas 6y ago
  > One reason I never want to work for a normal company is that I wouldn't be able to take naps. It depends on the culture: I work for an absolutely normal company in France (I'm the sole dev) and at noon I go home (10 min drive) cook my meal and eat leisurely, then get a 30 minutes nap and go back to work at 2 PM. Pay isn't great, but quality of life is high.

matthewh806 6y ago

You should probably add good server to that list...

sabujp 6y ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20180928130701/https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Good_sleep,_good_learning,_good_life https://web.archive.org/web/20180928130701/https://supermemo...

bhargav 6y ago

This page has been archived by the Wayback machine if folks are having issues accessing the mediawiki: https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Good_sleep,_good_learning,_good_life#Lark-owl_misconception https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Go...

x87678r 6y ago

After covid hit I'm having trouble sleeping too much. I'm doing 9 hours a night and occasional 1 hr nap after lunch, I feel my metabolism is slowing down and I'm putting on weight. I've started doing more aerobic exercise and it just makes me need my after lunch nap.

gchamonlive 6y ago
What helped me was to reduce the carbohydrates intake after noon and to drink more water. That helped a bit with my sleeping habit. But it has been really hot and that makes it that much more difficult to have a good night of sleep.
mtgx 6y ago
Try lowering carbs in your foods. Drop sodas, alcohol, sweets and snacks. Don't add sugar to your coffee or tea. First 2 weeks will be a bit difficult and you'll see just how addictive those things are, but after that you'll be fine without them and feel better.

muzani 6y ago

This has been one of my favourite articles for years, on the reading list, but never had the time to fully read such a behemoth. Some stuff I got out of this: 1. The ideal sleep pattern is sleeping when tired and walking up without an alarm. 2. Biphasic is recommended. Homeostatic is how easy it is to initiate sleep, circadian is how easy it is to maintain it. Circadian cycle is usually nightly, homeostatic peaks with fatigue. It's easy to have a 20 min midday nap but hard to do a midnight one. 3. Brainwork is great as soon as you wake up, and if you need caffiene, this is the time for it. Bundle stress and exercise and keep it away from the night. Take note this is all theory and not practical, and the author hints that society should follow these and not the other way around. It took me half a decade to find a way to fit it, and what I did was: A. Force myself to wake real early, about 4 AM. You will feel horrible for a week, but it moves your circadian rhythm forward to wake and sleep naturally without an alarm. B. Naps in the car at lunch. Waking early gave more time to cook, which means packed meals are done in half an hour, followed by a quick nap. I set an alarm but never need it. Exercise is easy; a quick run and a lot of strong deodorant.

zemvpferreira 6y ago
I remember reading the article a few years ago (unfortunately down right now) and being struck at both how erudite and impractical it is. These days I find it even more of the later. My biggest pet peeve is that it ignores the role technology (in the form of artificial light and comfortable indoor space) completely subverts our natural sleep cycle. It's a lost battle. Better to accept that we're in an artificial state our whole lives and do our best to adapt to it. What I'm trying right now is a good melatonin supplement every night to counteract the unnantural stimulus, plus a magnesium supplement, and a lot of daytime exercise. This routine has gotten me from 6 hours of anxious sleep to 8-9 hours per night plus the occasional nap. And I feel great.
- DjiboutiJon 6y ago
  I think it is great you found something that works for you. The main point of both your comment + the article (which, I also haven't been able to read yet) is that you need to find what works for you by trying things. Personally, melotonin only gives me 6 hours of sound sleep (many times I have tried to get more, last night being one of them). But in 6 hours from sleeping almost like clockwork I will be awake- and quite wide awake. It ususally takes another hour to fall back asleep, or sometimes I just decide to be awake. So personally, moving towards the no-supplement tact is appealing even if it is much harder in artificial environments.

biolurker1 6y ago

The section about not sleeping being lethal should be changed. First I talks about rats, secondly it's lethal for insomnia sufferers cause it makes them extremely scared and afraid of not sleeping (I'm obviously in this group).

slothtrop 6y ago

An influential oldie. This has more up-to-date research to back it up, but references that article - https://insomniasos.net/ https://insomniasos.net/ . Plus it isn't broken.

sabujp 6y ago

mirror : https://web.archive.org/web/20180928130701/https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Good_sleep,_good_learning,_good_life https://web.archive.org/web/20180928130701/https://supermemo...

sabujp 6y ago

all this is good and doable if you don't have kids or have a job (or are just retired) where you set your own schedule

ValentineC 6y ago

If the site is down for anyone else, I found a version that has split the chapters into separate pages here: https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Science_of_sleep https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Science_of_sleep

throw14082020 6y ago

Wow, that website is great. Thanks! It goes over learning/ schooling as well. I'd be interested to see how innovators are trying to solve the "10 mortal sins of schooling" or 50 bad habits learned at school.

rajlego 6y ago
Are you familiar with democratic schools or sudburry schools? They give children near complete freedom and are basically the answer to schooling issues. Unfortunately, they seem to have not spread too widely for issues I don't understand (likely funding and lack of understanding of learning from adults).

blarg1 6y ago

If anyone wants an easy way to wake up early, go camping. You are forced to go to bed early once it gets dark, and once it's morning even if you're tired, it's too bright to sleep in.