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> Personally I'm in favor of modesty... I'm a little confused. Didn't your first paragraph illustrate how "modesty" is basically subjective? If that's the case

> Personally I'm in favor of modesty... I'm a little confused. Didn't your first paragraph illustrate how "modesty" is basically subjective? If that's the case, what does it mean to be in favor of it? Are you in favor of the current notion of modesty as it is today in your country, and if so, why?

LudwigNagasena 6y ago
Humans share many subjective feelings and views. Just because something is subjective it doesn’t mean it should be disregarded. What days should be holidays is also pretty subjective, but if the society can agree on which days to consider as holidays, probably it can also agree on what is considered sexual and modest. (Which is actually way more important than holidays because it impacts children that could be traumatized by certain sexual behaviors).
- rcoveson 6y ago
  > Just because something is subjective it doesn’t mean it should be disregarded. Right, I completely agree. Which is why I'm confused when somebody brings up how a topic is subjective, complicated, and has been approached in the past in a way that seems ridiculous to us today; and then says simply "personally I'm in favor of [it]." That strikes me as disregarding the issue, and even disregarding what they just said themselves. > ...probably it can also agree on what is considered sexual and modest. I don't think the people of the USA will come to an agreement on this in my lifetime. Why would they? They haven't for the last hundred years.
  - quacked 6y ago
    I see your confusion, but I never actually agreed that the way people approached it in the past was ridiculous. Nearly every single human custom is arbitrary and subjective, but there's no reason to abandon all preferences simply because we understand that. "Modesty" in my country means that behaviors and body parts that are considered sexual are not displayed prominently or advertised; it doesn't matter that a nipple may not be inherently sexual, because everyone here feels that it is, and thus not displaying (and by extension, not saturating TV, movies, and advertisements with images of sexualized breasts) would be considered modest. I certainly wouldn't mind if the nipple was eventually de-sexualized, but seeing as that's likely not possible given the internet, and since it will likely remain sexualized at least in the western world, I'd prefer if people were modest about it.

LudwigNagasena 6y ago

Humans share many subjective feelings and views. Just because something is subjective it doesn’t mean it should be disregarded. What days should be holidays is also pretty subjective, but if the society can agree on which days to consider as holidays, probably it can also agree on what is considered sexual and modest. (Which is actually way more important than holidays because it impacts children that could be traumatized by certain sexual behaviors).

rcoveson 6y ago
> Just because something is subjective it doesn’t mean it should be disregarded. Right, I completely agree. Which is why I'm confused when somebody brings up how a topic is subjective, complicated, and has been approached in the past in a way that seems ridiculous to us today; and then says simply "personally I'm in favor of [it]." That strikes me as disregarding the issue, and even disregarding what they just said themselves. > ...probably it can also agree on what is considered sexual and modest. I don't think the people of the USA will come to an agreement on this in my lifetime. Why would they? They haven't for the last hundred years.
- quacked 6y ago
  I see your confusion, but I never actually agreed that the way people approached it in the past was ridiculous. Nearly every single human custom is arbitrary and subjective, but there's no reason to abandon all preferences simply because we understand that. "Modesty" in my country means that behaviors and body parts that are considered sexual are not displayed prominently or advertised; it doesn't matter that a nipple may not be inherently sexual, because everyone here feels that it is, and thus not displaying (and by extension, not saturating TV, movies, and advertisements with images of sexualized breasts) would be considered modest. I certainly wouldn't mind if the nipple was eventually de-sexualized, but seeing as that's likely not possible given the internet, and since it will likely remain sexualized at least in the western world, I'd prefer if people were modest about it.