5 ms·

This doesn't suggest anything other than handwriting is a more complex task than typing.

criddell 6y ago
> areas of the brain correlated with working memory and encoding new information were more active during handwriting Doesn't that suggest something more than just the complexity of data entry?
- Ancapistani 6y ago
  It’s not relevant to the study in TFA, but I believe handwriting notes is more effective because you can’t just transcribe - you have to instead understand the concept and restate it briefly enough to keep up.
  - jobigoud 6y ago
    More effective than what? Nobody types fast enough to transcribe a lecture verbatim, you would need 400 chars per minute or so.
    - macintux 6y ago
      I've known a former journalist who could type ~150 wpm. I don't doubt he could keep up with a lecture.
    - panopticon 6y ago
      400 CPM is only 80 WPM using the normal `WPM = CPM / 5` formula. Most of my coworkers are well past 80wpm (we played a few of those typing games during the shelter-in-place order), and stenographers or court reporters generally average above 200wpm with some in the low 300s. Anecdotally, I never had an issue transcribing college lectures when it was just spoken word. My problem was when the professor started to write on the board. Diagrams and stuff were always obnoxious to transcribe quickly, but that was before the days of the iPad and such.
      - fuzzfactor 6y ago
        By the time I got to the university I was using a premechanical[0] Rapidograph fountain pen to take lecture notes on high quality paper where I wrote down everything the professor wrote on the board, everything they said, and everything I thought about it at the time, especially something that might make a performance difference. I don't know how it compares to an ipad, but it was great because there was less friction and latency compared to a pencil or ball point pen. It did change your writing since you had to hold it almost vertical, not as big a change as the increased speed though. With a thin tip you could make small detailed diagrams. [0] like this: https://www.blackrockgalleries.com/product/vintage-rapidograph-no-2-pen-19277.html https://www.blackrockgalleries.com/product/vintage-rapidogra... Note: does not actually take a cartridge, it's a suction plunger assembly for liquid ink uptake, attached to the color-coded tip-size indicating band. You may want a thinner tip than No. 2 and ink having different viscosity, solids content, and drying rate than used for engineering drawing. not like this: https://www.kohinoorusa.com/rapidograph https://www.kohinoorusa.com/rapidograph not even this: https://twitter.com/yesteryearsfp/status/1016296550736293888 https://twitter.com/yesteryearsfp/status/1016296550736293888
    - opan 6y ago
      600cpm is quite realistic, 400cpm would not strike me as outrageous in the least. Do some tests on 10fastfingers to see where you're at, it lists both cpm and wpm. I will say there are issues aside from speed, though. Sometimes it just gets overwhelming keeping up and you may freeze up for a sec.
- fuzzfactor 6y ago
  The headgear in the article is superb. But everybody has far from exactly the same parts of the brain performing the same duties for the same things all the time. And data output is not the same as data entry. Seems to me there are big differences in what parts of the brain are engaged manually versus mechanically in other ways too, and that should lead to even bigger differences between individuals. Due to differences in brain wiring and structure, some parts of the brain may be much more efficient than others at the same process, and this is also different between individuals. Some tasks are likely to require more overhead to result in an equivalent outcome as well. Manual placemarking, art, language, documentation, machine operation, with direct memory access are all different things, and also are expected to interact in different ways for different people of different cultures. What if the documentation, machine operation, and direct memory access combine to form the working foundation earlier in the learning cycle than other possible elements with or without very much freehand work at all?
Ancapistani 6y ago
Right - writing slows down the rate at which the writer’s attention moves from one concept to another, which in turn means more time is spent per concept. This apparently results in better memory retention.
pfortuny 6y ago
Not so in maths though...
- Datenstrom 6y ago
  True, I always took math notes in LaTeX which I am fluent in and still it is much slower. Makes you think about how you can distill an idea down into key concepts which leads to active learning IMO. I still keep all my math notes in LaTeX although I'm considering trying a reMarkable. They have handwriting to text conversion, wonder if there is handwriting to TeX conversion.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
magicalhippo 6y ago
I found in my case, well prepared lectures where I write using pen and paper allows me to more closely follow the steps and arguments. The slower pace of writing allows for more time to think about what I write. Often it would stick so well I didn't need the notes afterwards, but I had to go through that process of writing them. An important part here is that I'm basically copying the lecturer, so I don't have to think about what to write. Once I have to that I learn almost nothing. For me this is part of the reason why I learn a lot less when taking notes on my computer, as suddenly I have distractions like having to care about formatting, drawing boxes and arrows etc. On paper you just move your hand a little, draw bigger letters, or draw a box. It's not something you have to think about. I had mainly math and physics though, might be different for other topics.
ironmagma 6y ago
And yet every time you bring it up with people, they are quick to dismiss the notion that hand-writing something is any different from typing it other than being slower.

> areas of the brain correlated with working memory and encoding new information were more active during handwriting Doesn't that suggest something more than just the complexity of data entry?

Ancapistani 6y ago
It’s not relevant to the study in TFA, but I believe handwriting notes is more effective because you can’t just transcribe - you have to instead understand the concept and restate it briefly enough to keep up.
- jobigoud 6y ago
  More effective than what? Nobody types fast enough to transcribe a lecture verbatim, you would need 400 chars per minute or so.
  - macintux 6y ago
    I've known a former journalist who could type ~150 wpm. I don't doubt he could keep up with a lecture.
  - panopticon 6y ago
    400 CPM is only 80 WPM using the normal `WPM = CPM / 5` formula. Most of my coworkers are well past 80wpm (we played a few of those typing games during the shelter-in-place order), and stenographers or court reporters generally average above 200wpm with some in the low 300s. Anecdotally, I never had an issue transcribing college lectures when it was just spoken word. My problem was when the professor started to write on the board. Diagrams and stuff were always obnoxious to transcribe quickly, but that was before the days of the iPad and such.
    - fuzzfactor 6y ago
      By the time I got to the university I was using a premechanical[0] Rapidograph fountain pen to take lecture notes on high quality paper where I wrote down everything the professor wrote on the board, everything they said, and everything I thought about it at the time, especially something that might make a performance difference. I don't know how it compares to an ipad, but it was great because there was less friction and latency compared to a pencil or ball point pen. It did change your writing since you had to hold it almost vertical, not as big a change as the increased speed though. With a thin tip you could make small detailed diagrams. [0] like this: https://www.blackrockgalleries.com/product/vintage-rapidograph-no-2-pen-19277.html https://www.blackrockgalleries.com/product/vintage-rapidogra... Note: does not actually take a cartridge, it's a suction plunger assembly for liquid ink uptake, attached to the color-coded tip-size indicating band. You may want a thinner tip than No. 2 and ink having different viscosity, solids content, and drying rate than used for engineering drawing. not like this: https://www.kohinoorusa.com/rapidograph https://www.kohinoorusa.com/rapidograph not even this: https://twitter.com/yesteryearsfp/status/1016296550736293888 https://twitter.com/yesteryearsfp/status/1016296550736293888
  - opan 6y ago
    600cpm is quite realistic, 400cpm would not strike me as outrageous in the least. Do some tests on 10fastfingers to see where you're at, it lists both cpm and wpm. I will say there are issues aside from speed, though. Sometimes it just gets overwhelming keeping up and you may freeze up for a sec.
fuzzfactor 6y ago
The headgear in the article is superb. But everybody has far from exactly the same parts of the brain performing the same duties for the same things all the time. And data output is not the same as data entry. Seems to me there are big differences in what parts of the brain are engaged manually versus mechanically in other ways too, and that should lead to even bigger differences between individuals. Due to differences in brain wiring and structure, some parts of the brain may be much more efficient than others at the same process, and this is also different between individuals. Some tasks are likely to require more overhead to result in an equivalent outcome as well. Manual placemarking, art, language, documentation, machine operation, with direct memory access are all different things, and also are expected to interact in different ways for different people of different cultures. What if the documentation, machine operation, and direct memory access combine to form the working foundation earlier in the learning cycle than other possible elements with or without very much freehand work at all?

Ancapistani 6y ago

Right - writing slows down the rate at which the writer’s attention moves from one concept to another, which in turn means more time is spent per concept. This apparently results in better memory retention.

pfortuny 6y ago

Not so in maths though...

Datenstrom 6y ago
True, I always took math notes in LaTeX which I am fluent in and still it is much slower. Makes you think about how you can distill an idea down into key concepts which leads to active learning IMO. I still keep all my math notes in LaTeX although I'm considering trying a reMarkable. They have handwriting to text conversion, wonder if there is handwriting to TeX conversion.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

magicalhippo 6y ago

I found in my case, well prepared lectures where I write using pen and paper allows me to more closely follow the steps and arguments. The slower pace of writing allows for more time to think about what I write. Often it would stick so well I didn't need the notes afterwards, but I had to go through that process of writing them. An important part here is that I'm basically copying the lecturer, so I don't have to think about what to write. Once I have to that I learn almost nothing. For me this is part of the reason why I learn a lot less when taking notes on my computer, as suddenly I have distractions like having to care about formatting, drawing boxes and arrows etc. On paper you just move your hand a little, draw bigger letters, or draw a box. It's not something you have to think about. I had mainly math and physics though, might be different for other topics.

ironmagma 6y ago

And yet every time you bring it up with people, they are quick to dismiss the notion that hand-writing something is any different from typing it other than being slower.