4 ms·

That gender gap sounds rather concerning

by nsgi 6y ago

slimed 6y ago
That so many just assume this to be the case, without understanding the preferences of the individuals involved, is concerning.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
apexalpha 6y ago
You're getting downvoted, but you're right. Traditional family values still resonate in these numbers and many people blame women working part-time for a gender imbalance at the top of companies. So that gender imbalance is definitely on the agenda. Whether you think these numbers are concerning depends on your political stance.
- nwienert 6y ago
  If women on average prefer to work less hours isn’t the concerning thing the people who seem to want to force them to work more? Especially when it’s oftentimes men that call this a “problem”? It seems unless you have some data showing their preference is to work more but they are limited by something externally forced on them, and you’d need data not opinion, you shouldn’t be concern-trolling. Women buy more dresses than men, is this a concern we should address?
  - ghaff 6y ago
    In general, I think the concern is whether it's a gender role that women are being forced into as opposed to something that they really are choosing voluntarily. Those two things can be hard to separate though. During the current pandemic, the data I've seen suggests that women are disproportionately dropping out of the workforce for childcare and other reasons. Of course if someone has to drop out of the workforce in a family, that may or may not be a "fair" response.
    - nwienert 6y ago
      If you look at the data, in the most liberal countries that rank highest on women's rights, education, equality of upbringing and lack of gender stereotypes, etc (nordic and some euro countries), women actually tend to choose more to work in less technical jobs and jobs that have less of a competitive career ladder. So if you're going on the data at least as far as I know it, this should be a good sign.
    - nec4b 6y ago
      Do you think taking care of children is a low status work that people have to do and not want to do? Do you think there is something wrong with a woman preferring raising children instead of pursuing a boring career?
      - ghaff 6y ago
        Not at all. However, the fact that they're now doing so during a pandemic whereas they weren't before suggests that it's not entirely voluntary.
        nec4b 6y ago
        I think the choice of working or staying at home is mostly a function of economics. Before the pandemic usually both partners had to work for a family to have a sufficient living standard. And now if one is forced to stay at home it makes sense for the partner with smaller income to stay at home. When you talk in terms of fairness you implicitly imply child care is somewhat less desirable than a career and are signaling to women or men who choose such path that they made a wrong choice.
      - nullsense 6y ago
        >Do you think taking care of children is a low status work that people have to do and not want to do? I know my wife certainly feels that way.
        nec4b 6y ago
  - apexalpha 6y ago
    This is a pretty good summary to be honest.
  - Viliam1234 6y ago
    > If women on average prefer to work less hours But do they prefer it more than men? Maybe we should be more careful about this assumption. I am a man, and I would prefer to work less hours. Unfortunately, my options are mostly limited to full-time or nothing. Here is how it works: suppose that both me and my wife are at a job interview, and we both say that we want a part-time job. The obvious question is "why?" If either of us answers honestly: "because I have life and hobbies and friends, and half of the market salary for my skill range is enough to pay my bills, so I see no reason to spend most of my awake time in an office", with such attitude we are obviously not going to get the job. You are supposed to pretend that working to make someone else even richer is the highest calling in your life, more important than your family or friends or dreams or whatever, not just something you have to do to pay your bills. Luckily, my wife has a socially acceptable excuse. I don't. Therefore, she will get the part-time job, and I will get the choice to either work full-time or try my luck elsewhere. This is not about our preferences. This is about what is socially acceptable for each of us. In the past I tried repeatedly to get a part-time job, but it was nearly impossible. (The best deal I got was working 4 days a week for 50% of my market salary. Even that was a rare exception.) When I respond to job offers mentioning "both full-time and part-time positions available" and I mention I am interested in the part-time one, I am usually told that those are only meant for women. So I keep working full-time, because that's the only option I got. And now people will use my "revealed preference" as a proof that this is what I really wanted. Eh.
    - mapt 6y ago
      > I am usually told that those are only meant for women. Is this the US? If so: Isn't this a full-on gender discrimination lawsuit waiting to happen under Title IX?
      - Viliam1234 6y ago
        > Is this the US? No.
  - names_are_hard 6y ago
    What if men feel it's a problem because they also want to work part time but feel social pressure to be successful breadwinner? They are frustrated that they will be judged for making the same choices women make without as much social stigma. I'm sure there are many reasons men are this as a problem, because there are many men. Just pointing out that it doesn't have to be some misguided savior complex.

That gender gap sounds rather concerning

by nsgi 6y ago

That gender gap sounds rather concerning

That so many just assume this to be the case, without understanding the preferences of the individuals involved, is concerning.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

apexalpha 6y ago

You're getting downvoted, but you're right. Traditional family values still resonate in these numbers and many people blame women working part-time for a gender imbalance at the top of companies. So that gender imbalance is definitely on the agenda. Whether you think these numbers are concerning depends on your political stance.

nwienert 6y ago
If women on average prefer to work less hours isn’t the concerning thing the people who seem to want to force them to work more? Especially when it’s oftentimes men that call this a “problem”? It seems unless you have some data showing their preference is to work more but they are limited by something externally forced on them, and you’d need data not opinion, you shouldn’t be concern-trolling. Women buy more dresses than men, is this a concern we should address?
- ghaff 6y ago
  In general, I think the concern is whether it's a gender role that women are being forced into as opposed to something that they really are choosing voluntarily. Those two things can be hard to separate though. During the current pandemic, the data I've seen suggests that women are disproportionately dropping out of the workforce for childcare and other reasons. Of course if someone has to drop out of the workforce in a family, that may or may not be a "fair" response.
  - nwienert 6y ago
    If you look at the data, in the most liberal countries that rank highest on women's rights, education, equality of upbringing and lack of gender stereotypes, etc (nordic and some euro countries), women actually tend to choose more to work in less technical jobs and jobs that have less of a competitive career ladder. So if you're going on the data at least as far as I know it, this should be a good sign.
  - nec4b 6y ago
    Do you think taking care of children is a low status work that people have to do and not want to do? Do you think there is something wrong with a woman preferring raising children instead of pursuing a boring career?
    - ghaff 6y ago
      Not at all. However, the fact that they're now doing so during a pandemic whereas they weren't before suggests that it's not entirely voluntary.
      - nec4b 6y ago
        I think the choice of working or staying at home is mostly a function of economics. Before the pandemic usually both partners had to work for a family to have a sufficient living standard. And now if one is forced to stay at home it makes sense for the partner with smaller income to stay at home. When you talk in terms of fairness you implicitly imply child care is somewhat less desirable than a career and are signaling to women or men who choose such path that they made a wrong choice.
    - nullsense 6y ago
      >Do you think taking care of children is a low status work that people have to do and not want to do? I know my wife certainly feels that way.
      - nec4b 6y ago
- apexalpha 6y ago
  This is a pretty good summary to be honest.
- Viliam1234 6y ago
  > If women on average prefer to work less hours But do they prefer it more than men? Maybe we should be more careful about this assumption. I am a man, and I would prefer to work less hours. Unfortunately, my options are mostly limited to full-time or nothing. Here is how it works: suppose that both me and my wife are at a job interview, and we both say that we want a part-time job. The obvious question is "why?" If either of us answers honestly: "because I have life and hobbies and friends, and half of the market salary for my skill range is enough to pay my bills, so I see no reason to spend most of my awake time in an office", with such attitude we are obviously not going to get the job. You are supposed to pretend that working to make someone else even richer is the highest calling in your life, more important than your family or friends or dreams or whatever, not just something you have to do to pay your bills. Luckily, my wife has a socially acceptable excuse. I don't. Therefore, she will get the part-time job, and I will get the choice to either work full-time or try my luck elsewhere. This is not about our preferences. This is about what is socially acceptable for each of us. In the past I tried repeatedly to get a part-time job, but it was nearly impossible. (The best deal I got was working 4 days a week for 50% of my market salary. Even that was a rare exception.) When I respond to job offers mentioning "both full-time and part-time positions available" and I mention I am interested in the part-time one, I am usually told that those are only meant for women. So I keep working full-time, because that's the only option I got. And now people will use my "revealed preference" as a proof that this is what I really wanted. Eh.
  - mapt 6y ago
    > I am usually told that those are only meant for women. Is this the US? If so: Isn't this a full-on gender discrimination lawsuit waiting to happen under Title IX?
    - Viliam1234 6y ago
      > Is this the US? No.
- names_are_hard 6y ago
  What if men feel it's a problem because they also want to work part time but feel social pressure to be successful breadwinner? They are frustrated that they will be judged for making the same choices women make without as much social stigma. I'm sure there are many reasons men are this as a problem, because there are many men. Just pointing out that it doesn't have to be some misguided savior complex.