10 ms·

France: Thousands of protesters wrongly punished under draconian laws

99 points by isolli 6y ago

skitout 6y ago
One journalist get arrested cause he had a camera: if you throw the camera, then it can hurt people, so he had a weapon and could get arrested...
- barumi 6y ago
  > One journalist get arrested cause he had a camera Do you have any source that mentions that case but also supports your assertion? Because if you don't then people can claim with the same level of honesty that the person you're referring to was actually an alien and instead of a camera it was holding a grenade.
drummer 6y ago
This is what always happens when you allow yourself to be fooled to vote away your souvereignty to others who will rule over you. It is incredible that people still expect a different outcome after thousands of years of history. Einstein called this behavior insanity.
sleepysysadmin 6y ago
France has been under martial law long before covid. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/07/will-frances-state-of-emergency-become-permanent/532848/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/07/wi... The state of emergency which enabled the martial law has never gone away. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op%C3%A9ration_Sentinelle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op%C3%A9ration_Sentinelle Yellow vests aka protests against the government have been banned before covid even happened. Did the yellow vests just give up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_vests_movement#21_September:_%22Act_XLV%22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_vests_movement#21_Septe... Interesting how wiki just stopped covering the yellow vests. https://apnews.com/article/bf7bc0dc7c2f49bb86ebf1e2595418fc https://apnews.com/article/bf7bc0dc7c2f49bb86ebf1e2595418fc https://www.newsbreak.com/tennessee/paris/news/2057961521309/paris-police-bans-planned-weekend-yellow-vests-protest https://www.newsbreak.com/tennessee/paris/news/2057961521309... The reason wiki stopped recording about the yellow vests is because the martial law and banning of protests. They arrested the yellow vest folks. The entire leadership have been imprisoned. If you look back as well. Sarkozy barely won. Hollande barely won. Then after martial law had been declared and general freedoms of the French people have been removed Macron won convincingly? Dominated his opponent. Then when covid came around he 100% banned protests. They have issued 500,000+ tickets for "non-essential movement outside" and it's currently not recorded how many arrests have occurred under the name of covid 19. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/09/12/clashes-and-arrests-as-yellow-vest-protests-return-in-france/ https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/09/12/clashes-and-arrest... The movement is dead because France's martial law has banned protests. This amnesty article doesn't go far enough. Coverage of France's martial law that has been ongoing for 5+ years and practical banning of basic human rights is quite scant.
- wott 6y ago
  In the France of the universe in which I live, martial law hasn't been in use for over 2 centuries.
  - sleepysysadmin 6y ago
    >In the France of the universe in which I live, martial law hasn't been in use for over 2 centuries. As established, the military has been deployed as police. Protests are 100% banned and you're not allowed to leave your home. People are being arrested for thought crimes. Right... not martial law...
polotics 6y ago
Some months back on holidays in France: turned on the TV, this was BFM a news channel. There was a demonstration in the center of Paris, riot cops in full gear. It was hot and one had his vest open, showing a "LONSDALE" brand t-shirt where conveniently, the center part of the word that remains visible with a vest says "NSDA". If you are clued up on this you will know NSDA can stand for National Sozialistische Deutsch Arbeitspartei, ie. the forebear of the Nazi party. It's a know thing among certain wrongheaded folks. Consider this a public service announcement. I have not gone back.
- newcomputer 6y ago
  So you refuse to go to France because you once saw a single cop on TV with a vest cropping a logo on his shirt such that it looked like that of a defunct socialist organization? You're a full-on whack-job.
  - polotics 6y ago
    No, there are many more data points than this. Sorry I thought it was relevant. I have no time to write you a dissertation.
  - dang 6y ago
    We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the site guidelines. Would you please stop creating accounts to do that with? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
0xmohit 6y ago
Unfortunate that Amnesty wouldn't be able to produce a similar report [0] about India [1] now. Protestors in India are being charged under UAPA [2]. In 2019, the act was amended allowing the government to designate an individual as a terrorist without trial. [0] Amnesty International India Halts Its Work On Upholding Human Rights In India Due To Reprisal From Government Of India - https://amnesty.org.in/news-update/amnesty-international-india-halts-its-work-on-upholding-human-rights-in-india-due-to-reprisal-from-government-of-india-2/ https://amnesty.org.in/news-update/amnesty-international-ind... [1] https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1314054705455144962.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1314054705455144962.html [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_Activities_(Prevention)_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_Activities_(Preventio...
macspoofing 6y ago
>Peaceful protests have been banned under draconian COVID-19 powers .. Most regions have draconian regulations on public gatherings (including religious services) but somehow protests (peaceful or otherwise) should be exempted?
- milquetoastaf 6y ago
  In some nations, such as the US, protesting is a Constitutionally-protected right and could be thus be considered essential activity
raverbashing 6y ago
"Peaceful protests", the GJ have been taking major cities hostages every weekend for a year now (with some Covid pause). It's gone way beyond reasonable now And yes, Covid is an exceptional situation and the limitations need to be obeyed. "Wrongly punished" is AIs opinion.
goku99 6y ago
is amnesty even trustable?
JPLeRouzic 6y ago
The recent news that some minors should be placed under supervision by military people is quite disturbing. Minor delinquency is a civil problem that should be tackled by police and justice. At the moment no laws permit that, but probably it will soon be drafted and voted [0]. [0] https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.francetvinfo.fr%2Fpolitique%2Fgouvernement-d-edouard-philippe%2Fjustice-eric-dupont-moretti-se-dit-favorable-a-l-encadrement-militaire-de-certains-mineurs_4133145.html https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&u=https%3...
- mytailorisrich 6y ago
  Military supervision of young people used to exist in France. It was even compulsory. It was called the 'National military service'. It was abolished 20 years ago but some people think it was actually useful to mix social classes, get young people away from mum and dad, teach some useful skills (people could get a driving license or a truck driving license as part of the training they got) and effort/discipline. This proposal is just a re-hash of that and of the classic "send them to military school/bootcamp, that'll teach tem".
  - athenot 6y ago
    > people could get a driving license or a truck driving license as part of the training they got For non-Europeans who might not appreciate the value, this is roughly $1,000 in value and many hours of {written,driving} lessons. PS: love the De Funès reference in your username!
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      CDLs in the US are similarly valuable.
      - UncleEntity 6y ago
        US military truck drivers (88M) doesn't give you a civilian CDL as part of the training. You can use a CDL as the training part to get a military license though -- aside from having to have a specific license for every different vehicle to be qualified to drive them but that's as simple as driving around the block to get 'signed off'. If you have a military drivers license you can drive on public streets in military vehicles but you can't use it to drive a civilian vehicle on military or public roads. (used to be an 88M and driver testing NCO)
t0mmyb0y 6y ago
This 'article' loses itself every time 'should not' is used instead of 'does not'.
gabereiser 6y ago
"There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people. "- Admiral Adama
- FpUser 6y ago
  My understanding that at least in the US the police is not legally obligated "to serve and protect", they're there to enforce the law.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - gabereiser 6y ago
    They swear an oath. But you are right, they aren’t legally obligated to.
- pmezard 6y ago
  French here. I have no intention to downplay the reported behaviour, just to give some perspective. First, the military vs police comments sound a bit off to me. Technically, the most incriminated force, CRS, are part of the "gendarmerie nationale" which is a branch of French military. But the comparison stops here, for all purpose they are trained and behave like a police force, only one dedicated to handle riots. Which puts them more than other in a position to commit abuses, hence the focus on them. In the recent years, there has been a tendency to equip them more and more like terminators with body armors and weapons like rubber bullets, tasers and the like. It is not well perceived and subject to continuous debate. But they have nowhere near the level or weaponization of US police force (almost typed "military" there, that is telling). What Amnesty International reports here is known, it makes the headlines all the time in national newspapers, and a lot of people (me included) are not happy at all about it. There are ongoing inquiries and CRS and police in general do not have the same level of immunity as in the US, even though more scrutiny is always welcome. Finally, keep in mind the level of violence in France is not comparable to the US. Every report you may see about it should be read relatively to what we are used to. From a different viewpoint, two policemen have been attacked and severely beaten two days ago. This is a national news, something exceptional, making again headlines on "Le Monde" (probably the major French newspaper) since then. But sure, maybe caused by terrorism and black blocs, the level of violence in police response has increased. This is a major issue and a big topic, not something ignored. And it should not be.
dfxm12 6y ago
They include the criminalization of “contempt of public officials”, “participation in a group with a view to committing violent acts” Literal thought crimes. I wish I could say my country handles this stuff better with a straight face, but there has been a very recent, almost worldwide, shift towards authoritarianism.
- caturopath 6y ago
  I'm not necessarily sure "participation in a group with a view to committing violent acts" needs to describe a thoughtcrime. Even the most liberal societies criminalize conspiring to commit or inciting violence, even if they don't get around to enacting the violence.
  - skitout 6y ago
    Well here the law is sufficiently vague so they used it to arrest journalist because they had a camera or a helmet, or arrest many protestors without clear reason. Most of them are out 48h later, but still spent 1 to 2 days in "jail"... A way to deter people from protesting...
  - rtkwe 6y ago
    It depends heavily on how the law is actually used because the phrase 'with a view to committing' means it's down to proving or disproving intent and even if you don't actually go to prison ultimately you can be arrested and/or detained under that law, which is unpleasant, disruptive and definitely acts to discourage people from participating in anything that would risk arrest.
    - mytailorisrich 6y ago
      You don't risk arrest for taking part in a lawful demonstration in France. You may risk arrest if you "come prepared", or don't follow police orders to move on or back off. During the Yellow Vests protests some people showed up with helmets, gas masks, and home-made shields, then complained that the police were infringing on their right to 'peaceful' protest when they were prevented from joining the demonstration or arrested... Dress like if you were out for a walk, which you are, and behave in the same way, and the police won't do anything to you.

99 points by isolli 6y ago

One journalist get arrested cause he had a camera: if you throw the camera, then it can hurt people, so he had a weapon and could get arrested...

barumi 6y ago
> One journalist get arrested cause he had a camera Do you have any source that mentions that case but also supports your assertion? Because if you don't then people can claim with the same level of honesty that the person you're referring to was actually an alien and instead of a camera it was holding a grenade.

drummer 6y ago

This is what always happens when you allow yourself to be fooled to vote away your souvereignty to others who will rule over you. It is incredible that people still expect a different outcome after thousands of years of history. Einstein called this behavior insanity.

sleepysysadmin 6y ago

France has been under martial law long before covid. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/07/will-frances-state-of-emergency-become-permanent/532848/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/07/wi... The state of emergency which enabled the martial law has never gone away. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op%C3%A9ration_Sentinelle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op%C3%A9ration_Sentinelle Yellow vests aka protests against the government have been banned before covid even happened. Did the yellow vests just give up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_vests_movement#21_September:_%22Act_XLV%22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_vests_movement#21_Septe... Interesting how wiki just stopped covering the yellow vests. https://apnews.com/article/bf7bc0dc7c2f49bb86ebf1e2595418fc https://apnews.com/article/bf7bc0dc7c2f49bb86ebf1e2595418fc https://www.newsbreak.com/tennessee/paris/news/2057961521309/paris-police-bans-planned-weekend-yellow-vests-protest https://www.newsbreak.com/tennessee/paris/news/2057961521309... The reason wiki stopped recording about the yellow vests is because the martial law and banning of protests. They arrested the yellow vest folks. The entire leadership have been imprisoned. If you look back as well. Sarkozy barely won. Hollande barely won. Then after martial law had been declared and general freedoms of the French people have been removed Macron won convincingly? Dominated his opponent. Then when covid came around he 100% banned protests. They have issued 500,000+ tickets for "non-essential movement outside" and it's currently not recorded how many arrests have occurred under the name of covid 19. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/09/12/clashes-and-arrests-as-yellow-vest-protests-return-in-france/ https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/09/12/clashes-and-arrest... The movement is dead because France's martial law has banned protests. This amnesty article doesn't go far enough. Coverage of France's martial law that has been ongoing for 5+ years and practical banning of basic human rights is quite scant.

wott 6y ago
In the France of the universe in which I live, martial law hasn't been in use for over 2 centuries.
- sleepysysadmin 6y ago
  >In the France of the universe in which I live, martial law hasn't been in use for over 2 centuries. As established, the military has been deployed as police. Protests are 100% banned and you're not allowed to leave your home. People are being arrested for thought crimes. Right... not martial law...

polotics 6y ago

Some months back on holidays in France: turned on the TV, this was BFM a news channel. There was a demonstration in the center of Paris, riot cops in full gear. It was hot and one had his vest open, showing a "LONSDALE" brand t-shirt where conveniently, the center part of the word that remains visible with a vest says "NSDA". If you are clued up on this you will know NSDA can stand for National Sozialistische Deutsch Arbeitspartei, ie. the forebear of the Nazi party. It's a know thing among certain wrongheaded folks. Consider this a public service announcement. I have not gone back.

newcomputer 6y ago
So you refuse to go to France because you once saw a single cop on TV with a vest cropping a logo on his shirt such that it looked like that of a defunct socialist organization? You're a full-on whack-job.
- polotics 6y ago
  No, there are many more data points than this. Sorry I thought it was relevant. I have no time to write you a dissertation.
- dang 6y ago
  We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the site guidelines. Would you please stop creating accounts to do that with? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

0xmohit 6y ago

Unfortunate that Amnesty wouldn't be able to produce a similar report [0] about India [1] now. Protestors in India are being charged under UAPA [2]. In 2019, the act was amended allowing the government to designate an individual as a terrorist without trial. [0] Amnesty International India Halts Its Work On Upholding Human Rights In India Due To Reprisal From Government Of India - https://amnesty.org.in/news-update/amnesty-international-india-halts-its-work-on-upholding-human-rights-in-india-due-to-reprisal-from-government-of-india-2/ https://amnesty.org.in/news-update/amnesty-international-ind... [1] https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1314054705455144962.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1314054705455144962.html [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_Activities_(Prevention)_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_Activities_(Preventio...

macspoofing 6y ago

>Peaceful protests have been banned under draconian COVID-19 powers .. Most regions have draconian regulations on public gatherings (including religious services) but somehow protests (peaceful or otherwise) should be exempted?

milquetoastaf 6y ago
In some nations, such as the US, protesting is a Constitutionally-protected right and could be thus be considered essential activity

raverbashing 6y ago

"Peaceful protests", the GJ have been taking major cities hostages every weekend for a year now (with some Covid pause). It's gone way beyond reasonable now And yes, Covid is an exceptional situation and the limitations need to be obeyed. "Wrongly punished" is AIs opinion.

goku99 6y ago

is amnesty even trustable?

JPLeRouzic 6y ago

The recent news that some minors should be placed under supervision by military people is quite disturbing. Minor delinquency is a civil problem that should be tackled by police and justice. At the moment no laws permit that, but probably it will soon be drafted and voted [0]. [0] https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.francetvinfo.fr%2Fpolitique%2Fgouvernement-d-edouard-philippe%2Fjustice-eric-dupont-moretti-se-dit-favorable-a-l-encadrement-militaire-de-certains-mineurs_4133145.html https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&u=https%3...

mytailorisrich 6y ago
Military supervision of young people used to exist in France. It was even compulsory. It was called the 'National military service'. It was abolished 20 years ago but some people think it was actually useful to mix social classes, get young people away from mum and dad, teach some useful skills (people could get a driving license or a truck driving license as part of the training they got) and effort/discipline. This proposal is just a re-hash of that and of the classic "send them to military school/bootcamp, that'll teach tem".
- athenot 6y ago
  > people could get a driving license or a truck driving license as part of the training they got For non-Europeans who might not appreciate the value, this is roughly $1,000 in value and many hours of {written,driving} lessons. PS: love the De Funès reference in your username!
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    CDLs in the US are similarly valuable.
    - UncleEntity 6y ago
      US military truck drivers (88M) doesn't give you a civilian CDL as part of the training. You can use a CDL as the training part to get a military license though -- aside from having to have a specific license for every different vehicle to be qualified to drive them but that's as simple as driving around the block to get 'signed off'. If you have a military drivers license you can drive on public streets in military vehicles but you can't use it to drive a civilian vehicle on military or public roads. (used to be an 88M and driver testing NCO)

t0mmyb0y 6y ago

This 'article' loses itself every time 'should not' is used instead of 'does not'.

gabereiser 6y ago

"There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people. "- Admiral Adama

FpUser 6y ago
My understanding that at least in the US the police is not legally obligated "to serve and protect", they're there to enforce the law.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- gabereiser 6y ago
  They swear an oath. But you are right, they aren’t legally obligated to.
pmezard 6y ago
French here. I have no intention to downplay the reported behaviour, just to give some perspective. First, the military vs police comments sound a bit off to me. Technically, the most incriminated force, CRS, are part of the "gendarmerie nationale" which is a branch of French military. But the comparison stops here, for all purpose they are trained and behave like a police force, only one dedicated to handle riots. Which puts them more than other in a position to commit abuses, hence the focus on them. In the recent years, there has been a tendency to equip them more and more like terminators with body armors and weapons like rubber bullets, tasers and the like. It is not well perceived and subject to continuous debate. But they have nowhere near the level or weaponization of US police force (almost typed "military" there, that is telling). What Amnesty International reports here is known, it makes the headlines all the time in national newspapers, and a lot of people (me included) are not happy at all about it. There are ongoing inquiries and CRS and police in general do not have the same level of immunity as in the US, even though more scrutiny is always welcome. Finally, keep in mind the level of violence in France is not comparable to the US. Every report you may see about it should be read relatively to what we are used to. From a different viewpoint, two policemen have been attacked and severely beaten two days ago. This is a national news, something exceptional, making again headlines on "Le Monde" (probably the major French newspaper) since then. But sure, maybe caused by terrorism and black blocs, the level of violence in police response has increased. This is a major issue and a big topic, not something ignored. And it should not be.

dfxm12 6y ago

They include the criminalization of “contempt of public officials”, “participation in a group with a view to committing violent acts” Literal thought crimes. I wish I could say my country handles this stuff better with a straight face, but there has been a very recent, almost worldwide, shift towards authoritarianism.

caturopath 6y ago
I'm not necessarily sure "participation in a group with a view to committing violent acts" needs to describe a thoughtcrime. Even the most liberal societies criminalize conspiring to commit or inciting violence, even if they don't get around to enacting the violence.
- skitout 6y ago
  Well here the law is sufficiently vague so they used it to arrest journalist because they had a camera or a helmet, or arrest many protestors without clear reason. Most of them are out 48h later, but still spent 1 to 2 days in "jail"... A way to deter people from protesting...
- rtkwe 6y ago
  It depends heavily on how the law is actually used because the phrase 'with a view to committing' means it's down to proving or disproving intent and even if you don't actually go to prison ultimately you can be arrested and/or detained under that law, which is unpleasant, disruptive and definitely acts to discourage people from participating in anything that would risk arrest.
  - mytailorisrich 6y ago
    You don't risk arrest for taking part in a lawful demonstration in France. You may risk arrest if you "come prepared", or don't follow police orders to move on or back off. During the Yellow Vests protests some people showed up with helmets, gas masks, and home-made shields, then complained that the police were infringing on their right to 'peaceful' protest when they were prevented from joining the demonstration or arrested... Dress like if you were out for a walk, which you are, and behave in the same way, and the police won't do anything to you.