4 ms·

A Prayer for Archimedes

46 points by scottlocklin 6y ago

pmiller2 6y ago
Needs (2007) in the title. TL;DR: Archimedes discovered many of the principles used in calculus today.
avmich 6y ago
So what is the plausibility of Archimedes getting help from time travelers to reach heights, depths and breadths of thoughts seemingly mystical in comparison with nearly everything else?
- b0rsuk 6y ago
  I think it's condescending towards the antique people to claim that they couldn't have figured these things out themselves. People were in all ways as smart and capable as us, they just had lower technology level and different concepts. I'm sure there were some concepts lost to the ages that could be developed into amazing modern technology. It's just how invention works - many times a great invention is not recognized as valuable. Zero is classic case. It was invented independently in various times and areas and forgotten. Without zero you can't have a positional numeric system.
- prox 6y ago
  Occams Razor states you should first look towards more plausible explanations (aka the simplest, but no simpler) Time traveling does not fit that description. Archimedes was part of a culture of learning, and he was a genius / master of his field.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    Another thing we should also remember is that just because most of the earliest sources we have are greek means less that the ideas were necessarily novel to those sources than that we simply don't have any earlier record of the ideas. Consider Thamus, as reported by Socrates, as written by Plato, arguing contra legibility, against preserving knowledge in writing. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0174%3Atext%3DPhaedrus%3Apage%3D274 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%... (infra) http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0174%3Atext%3DPhaedrus%3Apage%3D275 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%... (supra) Socrates: Ancient Literature Theorists believe the written word will be used for disinformation campaigns. (voiceover) Theban: You offer your pupils the appearance of wisdom, not true wisdom, for they will read many things without instruction and will therefore seem to know many things, when they are for the most part ignorant and hard to get along with, since they are not wise, but only appear wise. Socrates: What if it were true? Phaedrus: Are you just making up fake news about Egypt? Socrates: To you, perhaps an ad hominem against the source is apropos, for you do not evaluate solely the truth of claim. Phaedrus: True, the purported argument of this alleged Theban is sound. Demang im bera vide fit welte na ye finyish kom sif weltemang. (Those who only watch welding tutorials haven't yet become welders.)
  - b0rsuk 6y ago
    I think there will come a time when we come back to it. Today we have computers and very fast lookup, but an encyclopaedia won't tell you what you don't know. If you're a specialist, you'll have a hard time to making a discovery in an unrelated field. But a polymath, a renaissance man, a Leonardo, a man of many talents might. There's probably a limit of how much we can discover with current model. Far future inventors will need to have wide internalized knowledge and skills. A computer is a tool. A much more mentally capable person would do more with it.
- avmich 6y ago
  Apparently HN doesn't recognize a joke and sincere awe at the face of stellar achievements :( . And some even don't believe in progress, arguing that people of old knew what we, people of relative new, know. Wow.
082349872349872 6y ago
If Archimedes' final diagram was indeed of curved figures, TFA gives new context to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noli_turbare_circulos_meos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noli_turbare_circulos_meos! ==== Roman: Kay-ting name toe? Archimedes: Na, fodagut, du sabaka da duting xiya! Roman: Right, he's resisting arrest! (stabs Archimedes) Archimedes: (Wilhelm scream)
chewxy 6y ago
Funnily I litery just finished reading The Archimedes Codex by Reviel Nets and William Noel this evening. I highly recommend it. Part detective story, part rediscovery. Very easy to read.
dr_dshiv 6y ago
The article discusses the different types of infinity known to Aristotle: “An infinitely long line would be actually infinite, whereas a line that could always be extended would be potentially infinite. Aristotle argued that the actual infinite didn’t exist." the article shows that Archimedes dealt with both, mathematically. And both are accepted today in mathematics, although calculus deals with the potential infinite. There is another type of infinity I'm looking to understand or find a mathematical name for. I recently read Spinoza's Ethica (Ethics demonstrated in the style of geometric proofs) where he uses infinity axiomatically to refer to what might be called "allness infinity". I don't know another mathematical name for the concept, even though it is quite intuitive.
- dr_dshiv 6y ago
  And awkwardly, this is how Spinoza defines God: "By God, I mean a being absolutely infinite—that is, a substance consisting in infinite attributes, of which each expresses eternal and infinite essentiality. Explanation—I say absolutely infinite, not infinite after its kind : for, of a thing infinite only after its kind, infinite attributes may be denied ; but that which is absolutely infinite, contains in its essence whatever expresses reality, and involves no negation" What's fascinating about this rhetorically is that it forces theists to accept a lesser entity as God or to deal with the ramifications of infinity (which leads to a view that looks a lot like atheism). Einstein famously said he believed in the God of Spinoza. "I believe in Spinoza's god, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a god who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind"
  - nonsapreiche 6y ago
    Also when a logic meets a philosopher https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_pro...
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    Mark Twain, on concern for the doings of mankind and on infinity: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24321794 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24321794
mci 6y ago
> the book again disappeared until nearly a decade ago, when it was auctioned off at Christie’s. "Disappeared" is a Newspeak euphemism for "was stolen"[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes_Palimpsest#Modern https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes_Palimpsest#Modern

46 points by scottlocklin 6y ago

Needs (2007) in the title. TL;DR: Archimedes discovered many of the principles used in calculus today.

So what is the plausibility of Archimedes getting help from time travelers to reach heights, depths and breadths of thoughts seemingly mystical in comparison with nearly everything else?

b0rsuk 6y ago
I think it's condescending towards the antique people to claim that they couldn't have figured these things out themselves. People were in all ways as smart and capable as us, they just had lower technology level and different concepts. I'm sure there were some concepts lost to the ages that could be developed into amazing modern technology. It's just how invention works - many times a great invention is not recognized as valuable. Zero is classic case. It was invented independently in various times and areas and forgotten. Without zero you can't have a positional numeric system.
prox 6y ago
Occams Razor states you should first look towards more plausible explanations (aka the simplest, but no simpler) Time traveling does not fit that description. Archimedes was part of a culture of learning, and he was a genius / master of his field.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  Another thing we should also remember is that just because most of the earliest sources we have are greek means less that the ideas were necessarily novel to those sources than that we simply don't have any earlier record of the ideas. Consider Thamus, as reported by Socrates, as written by Plato, arguing contra legibility, against preserving knowledge in writing. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0174%3Atext%3DPhaedrus%3Apage%3D274 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%... (infra) http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0174%3Atext%3DPhaedrus%3Apage%3D275 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%... (supra) Socrates: Ancient Literature Theorists believe the written word will be used for disinformation campaigns. (voiceover) Theban: You offer your pupils the appearance of wisdom, not true wisdom, for they will read many things without instruction and will therefore seem to know many things, when they are for the most part ignorant and hard to get along with, since they are not wise, but only appear wise. Socrates: What if it were true? Phaedrus: Are you just making up fake news about Egypt? Socrates: To you, perhaps an ad hominem against the source is apropos, for you do not evaluate solely the truth of claim. Phaedrus: True, the purported argument of this alleged Theban is sound. Demang im bera vide fit welte na ye finyish kom sif weltemang. (Those who only watch welding tutorials haven't yet become welders.)
- b0rsuk 6y ago
  I think there will come a time when we come back to it. Today we have computers and very fast lookup, but an encyclopaedia won't tell you what you don't know. If you're a specialist, you'll have a hard time to making a discovery in an unrelated field. But a polymath, a renaissance man, a Leonardo, a man of many talents might. There's probably a limit of how much we can discover with current model. Far future inventors will need to have wide internalized knowledge and skills. A computer is a tool. A much more mentally capable person would do more with it.
avmich 6y ago
Apparently HN doesn't recognize a joke and sincere awe at the face of stellar achievements :( . And some even don't believe in progress, arguing that people of old knew what we, people of relative new, know. Wow.

082349872349872 6y ago

If Archimedes' final diagram was indeed of curved figures, TFA gives new context to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noli_turbare_circulos_meos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noli_turbare_circulos_meos! ==== Roman: Kay-ting name toe? Archimedes: Na, fodagut, du sabaka da duting xiya! Roman: Right, he's resisting arrest! (stabs Archimedes) Archimedes: (Wilhelm scream)

chewxy 6y ago

Funnily I litery just finished reading The Archimedes Codex by Reviel Nets and William Noel this evening. I highly recommend it. Part detective story, part rediscovery. Very easy to read.

dr_dshiv 6y ago

The article discusses the different types of infinity known to Aristotle: “An infinitely long line would be actually infinite, whereas a line that could always be extended would be potentially infinite. Aristotle argued that the actual infinite didn’t exist." the article shows that Archimedes dealt with both, mathematically. And both are accepted today in mathematics, although calculus deals with the potential infinite. There is another type of infinity I'm looking to understand or find a mathematical name for. I recently read Spinoza's Ethica (Ethics demonstrated in the style of geometric proofs) where he uses infinity axiomatically to refer to what might be called "allness infinity". I don't know another mathematical name for the concept, even though it is quite intuitive.

dr_dshiv 6y ago
And awkwardly, this is how Spinoza defines God: "By God, I mean a being absolutely infinite—that is, a substance consisting in infinite attributes, of which each expresses eternal and infinite essentiality. Explanation—I say absolutely infinite, not infinite after its kind : for, of a thing infinite only after its kind, infinite attributes may be denied ; but that which is absolutely infinite, contains in its essence whatever expresses reality, and involves no negation" What's fascinating about this rhetorically is that it forces theists to accept a lesser entity as God or to deal with the ramifications of infinity (which leads to a view that looks a lot like atheism). Einstein famously said he believed in the God of Spinoza. "I believe in Spinoza's god, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a god who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind"
- nonsapreiche 6y ago
  Also when a logic meets a philosopher https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_pro...
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  Mark Twain, on concern for the doings of mankind and on infinity: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24321794 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24321794

mci 6y ago

> the book again disappeared until nearly a decade ago, when it was auctioned off at Christie’s. "Disappeared" is a Newspeak euphemism for "was stolen"[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes_Palimpsest#Modern https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes_Palimpsest#Modern