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This article makes for an interesting read. I'm not qualified to evaluate its historical claims but its claims about the current state of science in the Muslim

This article makes for an interesting read. I'm not qualified to evaluate its historical claims but its claims about the current state of science in the Muslim world don't agree with what little knowledge I have in that area. That knowledge comes from having been acquainted with a number of Muslim students and scientists both in the US and in France. I did not at all get the impression that they came from a culture that does not value open rational inquiry, despite several, at least, being devout Muslims. I'm sure Fundamentalists are deeply opposed to anything resembling science but as far as I know they are a minority in most of the Muslim world. I should qualify these statements by noting that most of the Muslims I knew came from the Maghreb rather than say the Persian Gulf area so maybe things are very different there. There are also some other possible explanations for the relative lack of success of scientific research in Muslim countries today that the article does not consider. First many of these countries are relatively poor and under-developed so if you are born there and have the opportunity to study science you are likely to be encouraged to go into more practical fields, like engineering, rather than pure research, which is very under-funded in these countries, again mostly due to overall lack of resources. Secondly if you really want to go into research your best bet is to emigrate to the west if that is at all possible. Again some of this doesn't apply to the oil rich states of the Persian Gulf, but I think the brain drain effect is at work even there.

xiaolingxiao 6y ago
Same. In college some of the smartest people I know come from Iran Syria Lebanon and such. Tehran university is good at producing scholars. Not sure about the average person, but I do get a sense that scholarship is valued.
nashashmi 6y ago
> your best bet is to emigrate to the west if that is at all possible And THAT is the problem in any non-western country. The extent of brain drain by more flourishing economies are the prime reasons why certain countries are plagued by lack of education, lack of opportunity, spread of corruption, and spread of gang-like entities.
- hannofcart 6y ago
  While your point is well taken, note that the brain drain would not be as rampant if the countries themselves as a matter of policy emphasised investing in research. Note also that a significant portion of the current problems bogging these nations down stems from conflict along religious and sectarian lines (Shia-Sunni enemity).
  - acituan 6y ago
    > brain drain would not be as rampant if the countries themselves as a matter of policy emphasised investing in research. That is far from the only reason. If you check metrics on HDI indices, economic and social freedom indices and other institutional performance metrics, you will see those countries having multiple problems. Those who emigrated are not doing so in the name of science but because they happen to have desirable, transferable skills and can leave their homelands. > Note also that a significant portion of the current problems bogging these nations down stems from conflict along religious and sectarian lines By the same token this is an oversimplified mischaracterization. Problems are due to authoritarian regimes with corrupt institutions; from higher education to a lack of functioning justice system, which both hamper things internally but also reduces foreign investment in those countries.
captain_price7 6y ago
I'm from a 3rd world Muslim country, I also agree that the number of people who actively oppose "western education" is extremely small. They are on the fringe even in the rural, comparatively religious society I grew up in. It's important to remember that most people don't really worry about this kind of ideological questions, like whether studying in university is incompatible with Quran. Hell, most people don't even know what's in Quran. So at least in contemporary world, I think lack of Muslim progress is better explained by poverty and not through those ideological analyses.
- bayesian_horse 6y ago
  I agree. I am and live among white first world people and I often hear the opinion that the problems of muslim immigrants both here and in their home country are caused by their bad character traits, either culturally or genetically. To me this is bullshit. Most of these problems are caused by poverty. If you're poor you don't have good education, information, nutrition, health systems and all the like. And that causes all sorts of disadvantages people can't imagine. It's not character or genetics.
  - cbnotfromthere 6y ago
    "I agree. I am and live among white first world people and I often hear the opinion that the problems of muslim immigrants both here and in their home country are caused by their bad character traits, either culturally or genetically. To me this is bullshit. Most of these problems are caused by poverty. If you're poor you don't have good education, information, nutrition, health systems and all the like. And that causes all sorts of disadvantages people can't imagine. It's not character or genetics." Too bad a simple A/B testing will reveal your own belief to be wrong. There are many countries where poverty creates masses of people without "good education, information, nutrition, health systems and all the like", yet is it consistently Muslims countries who create first-hand violent extremists (aka "terrorists") and their supporters. To further destroy your thesis, most of the 9/11 terrorists were educated Saudis from middle-class to rich families.

xiaolingxiao 6y ago

Same. In college some of the smartest people I know come from Iran Syria Lebanon and such. Tehran university is good at producing scholars. Not sure about the average person, but I do get a sense that scholarship is valued.

nashashmi 6y ago

> your best bet is to emigrate to the west if that is at all possible And THAT is the problem in any non-western country. The extent of brain drain by more flourishing economies are the prime reasons why certain countries are plagued by lack of education, lack of opportunity, spread of corruption, and spread of gang-like entities.

hannofcart 6y ago
While your point is well taken, note that the brain drain would not be as rampant if the countries themselves as a matter of policy emphasised investing in research. Note also that a significant portion of the current problems bogging these nations down stems from conflict along religious and sectarian lines (Shia-Sunni enemity).
- acituan 6y ago
  > brain drain would not be as rampant if the countries themselves as a matter of policy emphasised investing in research. That is far from the only reason. If you check metrics on HDI indices, economic and social freedom indices and other institutional performance metrics, you will see those countries having multiple problems. Those who emigrated are not doing so in the name of science but because they happen to have desirable, transferable skills and can leave their homelands. > Note also that a significant portion of the current problems bogging these nations down stems from conflict along religious and sectarian lines By the same token this is an oversimplified mischaracterization. Problems are due to authoritarian regimes with corrupt institutions; from higher education to a lack of functioning justice system, which both hamper things internally but also reduces foreign investment in those countries.

captain_price7 6y ago

I'm from a 3rd world Muslim country, I also agree that the number of people who actively oppose "western education" is extremely small. They are on the fringe even in the rural, comparatively religious society I grew up in. It's important to remember that most people don't really worry about this kind of ideological questions, like whether studying in university is incompatible with Quran. Hell, most people don't even know what's in Quran. So at least in contemporary world, I think lack of Muslim progress is better explained by poverty and not through those ideological analyses.

bayesian_horse 6y ago
I agree. I am and live among white first world people and I often hear the opinion that the problems of muslim immigrants both here and in their home country are caused by their bad character traits, either culturally or genetically. To me this is bullshit. Most of these problems are caused by poverty. If you're poor you don't have good education, information, nutrition, health systems and all the like. And that causes all sorts of disadvantages people can't imagine. It's not character or genetics.
- cbnotfromthere 6y ago
  "I agree. I am and live among white first world people and I often hear the opinion that the problems of muslim immigrants both here and in their home country are caused by their bad character traits, either culturally or genetically. To me this is bullshit. Most of these problems are caused by poverty. If you're poor you don't have good education, information, nutrition, health systems and all the like. And that causes all sorts of disadvantages people can't imagine. It's not character or genetics." Too bad a simple A/B testing will reveal your own belief to be wrong. There are many countries where poverty creates masses of people without "good education, information, nutrition, health systems and all the like", yet is it consistently Muslims countries who create first-hand violent extremists (aka "terrorists") and their supporters. To further destroy your thesis, most of the 9/11 terrorists were educated Saudis from middle-class to rich families.