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Even less cool sub-story is the way briliant people serving as soldiers are considered disposable on behalf of their government in the name of violence created

Even less cool sub-story is the way briliant people serving as soldiers are considered disposable on behalf of their government in the name of violence created by that government.

mellosouls 6y ago
Good point - but soldiers at least have a choice in enlisting and have some idea of potential consequences.
- yetihehe 6y ago
  In USA - currently yes. In many countries there is still unvoluntary army draft. "Some idea" of potential consequences - yeah, you can get killed. If I was sure that I could get killed for morally valid reasons (like defending my homeland, your moral validity may differ) and not to defend oil execs exploiting poorer coutries, I would have less objections. I'm rather convinced that we will have some big war soon and I'll try to help defend my country first with my skills and if that's not enough, then at least as cannon fodder. BTW, I'm not from USA, we had forced draft until several years ago.
- kittiepryde 6y ago
  Sometimes the other choice is unemployment without hope for education.
  - nwsm 6y ago
    Not to mention pushy/disingenuous military recruitment tactics.
  - abduhl 6y ago
    But I thought Uber and Lyft fixed that problem by allowing people to get predatory leases and then work for below minimum wage?
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  Sometimes soldiers don’t even have the choice to enlist. Conscription and drafts have not been rare historically.
- nabnob 6y ago
  Military recruitment intentionally targets poor and working class small towns where people don't have a lot of career choices.
  - ganoushoreilly 6y ago
    And the trade off is often times more upward mobility in their life vs. stagnant wages and trouble. The military isn't for everyone, but I know plenty of people that came from all walks of life that joined for a myriad of reasons. The military is first and foremost about providing economic means for those that need a step out of their circumstances. You can agree, or disagree. The reality is most people argue college is the answer. Not everyone can get into school, and most won't get scholarships, lest we even look at the issues with post college placement. The military is an option, one that is good for many. It can provide, shelter, food, generous pay, healthcare, and set you up with fully paid college. Most of these things are readily available to well off individuals, so it's less targeting poor people as it is giving them an option they otherwise don't have.
tug0fwar 6y ago
... we have overdeveloped the material aspects of existence at the expense of the deeper emotional and spiritual aspects, and we are paying the price for that error. - Mindfulness in Plain English
notsuoh 6y ago
No one who enlists into the military with eyes wide open or who has even cursory access to the internet or films thinks they aren't making a choice that would potentially make them disposable to the military. It's true some people decide that's worth the risk to get college money or some "life skills" or for another myriad of reasons, but it is literally a contract they sign and must be of sound mind to do so. If I decide to become an undersea welder, one of the most dangerous jobs, because the money is good, then I am accepting the risk of getting injured or killed, though I hope I would not have harm befall me. Either way I'm making the choice based on my circumstances. A dog didn't sign up for or agree to any of this.
- twalla 6y ago
  As a counterpoint to your underwater welder example - the underwater welding industry doesn't have recruiting offices around the country in low income areas or recruiters stationed in high schools, nor do they have an arrangement with movie studios where they can use their underwater welding equipment for free in their movies so long as the movies portray the underwater welding industry in a positive light. It's disappointing that as a society we seem to be cool with (mostly poor) people with undeveloped prefrontal cortices having to make a choice between incurring significant high interest debt (which they were probably never given the tools to make informed decisions about in the first place) or risking their lives for something that's free or at least attainable in the rest of the developed world.
  - bdowling 6y ago
    > people with undeveloped prefrontal cortices Someone with an “undeveloped prefrontal cortex”, a vague and insulting description, would be a liability on a battlefield. Not every soldier needs to have a genius IQ, but they need to be competent for their role. The military is also not a college financing program and only an fool would treat it like one.
    - twalla 6y ago
      It's actually not vague and wasn't meant to be insulting - the prefrontal cortex doesn't finish developing in healthy adult humans until around the age of 25 with females developing a little earlier. This area of the brain, particularly the lateral frontal pole, is responsible for long term planning and decisionmaking, it's also one of the latest developing parts of the brain that's involved in decisionmaking. What I'm getting at is that it's ridiculous to try to argue that a 17-18 year old's abilities to plan and make decisions around the future are on par with the abilities of a 25+ year old. The average age of enlistment is 20-21 with a lower bounds of 17. I'm not arguing that the military doesn't provide _lots_ of opportunities to people or that people only enlist for the benefits (the best I could find was a RAND Corp survey predicting likelihood of choosing enlisting of working or going to college), I'm arguing that it's shameful that we aren't able to provide similar opportunities without putting young people, who are at a disadvantage when calculating the risk involved, in shitty situations.
kordlessagain 6y ago
Even less cool sub-story is the way brilliant people sit behind computers typing code for companies who consider their "users" disposable income objects.
- rad_gruchalski 6y ago
  Don’t forget that those writing the code are also disposable when not performing well enough.
- yetihehe 6y ago
  You mean they get killed for "higher reasons"? But you are right, there are many companies and whole industries where execs are valuing their money more than their clients. I chose to not work at those companies. In many countries today there still is involuntary army draft, not like in USA today where you at least have a choice if you want to be a soldier.

Even less cool sub-story is the way briliant people serving as soldiers are considered disposable on behalf of their government in the name of violence created by that government.

mellosouls 6y ago

Good point - but soldiers at least have a choice in enlisting and have some idea of potential consequences.

yetihehe 6y ago
In USA - currently yes. In many countries there is still unvoluntary army draft. "Some idea" of potential consequences - yeah, you can get killed. If I was sure that I could get killed for morally valid reasons (like defending my homeland, your moral validity may differ) and not to defend oil execs exploiting poorer coutries, I would have less objections. I'm rather convinced that we will have some big war soon and I'll try to help defend my country first with my skills and if that's not enough, then at least as cannon fodder. BTW, I'm not from USA, we had forced draft until several years ago.
kittiepryde 6y ago
Sometimes the other choice is unemployment without hope for education.
- nwsm 6y ago
  Not to mention pushy/disingenuous military recruitment tactics.
- abduhl 6y ago
  But I thought Uber and Lyft fixed that problem by allowing people to get predatory leases and then work for below minimum wage?
throwaway894345 6y ago
Sometimes soldiers don’t even have the choice to enlist. Conscription and drafts have not been rare historically.
nabnob 6y ago
Military recruitment intentionally targets poor and working class small towns where people don't have a lot of career choices.
- ganoushoreilly 6y ago
  And the trade off is often times more upward mobility in their life vs. stagnant wages and trouble. The military isn't for everyone, but I know plenty of people that came from all walks of life that joined for a myriad of reasons. The military is first and foremost about providing economic means for those that need a step out of their circumstances. You can agree, or disagree. The reality is most people argue college is the answer. Not everyone can get into school, and most won't get scholarships, lest we even look at the issues with post college placement. The military is an option, one that is good for many. It can provide, shelter, food, generous pay, healthcare, and set you up with fully paid college. Most of these things are readily available to well off individuals, so it's less targeting poor people as it is giving them an option they otherwise don't have.

tug0fwar 6y ago

... we have overdeveloped the material aspects of existence at the expense of the deeper emotional and spiritual aspects, and we are paying the price for that error. - Mindfulness in Plain English

notsuoh 6y ago

No one who enlists into the military with eyes wide open or who has even cursory access to the internet or films thinks they aren't making a choice that would potentially make them disposable to the military. It's true some people decide that's worth the risk to get college money or some "life skills" or for another myriad of reasons, but it is literally a contract they sign and must be of sound mind to do so. If I decide to become an undersea welder, one of the most dangerous jobs, because the money is good, then I am accepting the risk of getting injured or killed, though I hope I would not have harm befall me. Either way I'm making the choice based on my circumstances. A dog didn't sign up for or agree to any of this.

twalla 6y ago
As a counterpoint to your underwater welder example - the underwater welding industry doesn't have recruiting offices around the country in low income areas or recruiters stationed in high schools, nor do they have an arrangement with movie studios where they can use their underwater welding equipment for free in their movies so long as the movies portray the underwater welding industry in a positive light. It's disappointing that as a society we seem to be cool with (mostly poor) people with undeveloped prefrontal cortices having to make a choice between incurring significant high interest debt (which they were probably never given the tools to make informed decisions about in the first place) or risking their lives for something that's free or at least attainable in the rest of the developed world.
- bdowling 6y ago
  > people with undeveloped prefrontal cortices Someone with an “undeveloped prefrontal cortex”, a vague and insulting description, would be a liability on a battlefield. Not every soldier needs to have a genius IQ, but they need to be competent for their role. The military is also not a college financing program and only an fool would treat it like one.
  - twalla 6y ago
    It's actually not vague and wasn't meant to be insulting - the prefrontal cortex doesn't finish developing in healthy adult humans until around the age of 25 with females developing a little earlier. This area of the brain, particularly the lateral frontal pole, is responsible for long term planning and decisionmaking, it's also one of the latest developing parts of the brain that's involved in decisionmaking. What I'm getting at is that it's ridiculous to try to argue that a 17-18 year old's abilities to plan and make decisions around the future are on par with the abilities of a 25+ year old. The average age of enlistment is 20-21 with a lower bounds of 17. I'm not arguing that the military doesn't provide _lots_ of opportunities to people or that people only enlist for the benefits (the best I could find was a RAND Corp survey predicting likelihood of choosing enlisting of working or going to college), I'm arguing that it's shameful that we aren't able to provide similar opportunities without putting young people, who are at a disadvantage when calculating the risk involved, in shitty situations.

kordlessagain 6y ago

Even less cool sub-story is the way brilliant people sit behind computers typing code for companies who consider their "users" disposable income objects.

rad_gruchalski 6y ago
Don’t forget that those writing the code are also disposable when not performing well enough.
yetihehe 6y ago
You mean they get killed for "higher reasons"? But you are right, there are many companies and whole industries where execs are valuing their money more than their clients. I chose to not work at those companies. In many countries today there still is involuntary army draft, not like in USA today where you at least have a choice if you want to be a soldier.