9 ms·

Signs Your Story Is Classist

25 points by BerislavLopac 6y ago

mrxd 6y ago
The weird thing is that this article is in itself elitist. Cultural moralizing comes from a place of superiority and trying to morally improve the public. Inequality exists because the elite class holds political power, not because there is stigma and bigotry against the working class.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  Hmm, yeah. "You should write this way, and not that way" says that "this way" is morally superior to "that way". That's classism in culture telling you to not be classist in terms of economics.
  - mrxd 6y ago
    I wouldn't say that morality is classist per se. The idea of writers influencing the minds of their readers seems paternalistic, because the reading public are treated as impressionable children who need protection and guidance from their betters. And then it's a small step to saying maybe they shouldn't be trusted to vote, either.
    - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
      I would say that classism often becomes paternalistic on the part of the "upper" class, so I see a fair amount of overlap between classism and paternalism. And I actually think that some ideas are better than others, and so are some versions of morality. And I think that those who have the better systems should teach them. But they need to do so with a fair amount of sensitivity and humility, not with arrogance. But then, I'm not the one preaching against classism.
true_religion 6y ago
> Plus, homeless people aren’t all older white guys.... > when heroes focus on petty criminals because it encourages the over-policing of impoverished neighborhoods, particularly Black ones.... > United States has “hick” or “white trash” stereotypes ... however, any negative class-based stereotypes also impact them [people of color] a great deal As a person of colour, I am not a fan of this trope where white writers[1] will make everything even vaguely demeaning about the downtrodden, somehow related to minorities. All of the examples, given were of white people. Can bad representations of white people not simply remain encapsulated to them? Saying that everything related to the impoverished must by some means also relate to people of colour is not only clearly wrong, but the classism that the author is ranting against. Lastly, the author is wrong where she writes > White supremacists are natural villains but shouldn’t be glorified even a little, which limits their effectiveness as a fictional threat... The critical success of Lovecraft Country which features villainous racist wizards, puts this to shame, as does the success of Watchmen before it which shed light on the Bombing of Tusla (aka Black Wall Street Massacre) that a whole generation of children likely did not learn about before. In other examples, comic book villains have historically been associated with America's enemy du'jour. Hydra is no less dramatic or effective in fiction, simply because they are Nazis. [1] The author, Chris Winkle, is a white woman.
hirundo 6y ago
This is all about classism toward the poor. Are classist tropes about the rich not a concern? Or can there be no classism toward the rich in the same way, some claim, there can be no racism toward whites?
- BurningFrog 6y ago
  Think of that not as a claim, but as a competing definition of the word(s).
- wilsonrocks 6y ago
  I don't think the rich are particularly held back by any classism they might experience.
  - true_religion 6y ago
    By logic, if the rich are held back by any wide spread ideology in society, they tend to fall back into poverty. For example, black nouveau-riche in New Orleans falling into utter poverty once Jim Crow laws were passed, or in feudal societies where self-titled merchant princes would always fallback to becoming common nobodies in time because they were not real hereditary aristocrats and thus didn't get first pick at any new trade route, or crown-backed company.
    - wilsonrocks 6y ago
      Interesting example, and yes these cases are valid... I think I should have explicitly rather than implicitly defined class as more broad than just 'has a lot of money' - these examples are kind of 'working class but became successful' rather than 'upper class'? Edit - and then used that definition rather than just saying The Rich
cataphract 6y ago
It's one thing to point out these stereotypes, but a bit presumptuous to tell writers what they should write. Not all works need to have the subtle, nuanced and realistic depictions the author advocates for. He also basically disavows any humor built around negative stereotypes of certain groups, which would put a big percentage of comedy off-limits.
- golergka 6y ago
  Author does not advocate fo subtle, nuanced or even realistic depictions though: > Depicting poor characters is great, but avoid making them lazy, dirty, crude, ignorant, or unintelligent. From a lot of very personal experience with poor working class, this norm throws realism completely out of the window.
- leetcrew 6y ago
  I dunno, I see two sides to it. like it or not, popular shows/movies/books have a powerful influence over the way people see the world. having a large audience does come with a certain responsibility. but if you accept this idea, why stop with the examples presented in the article? what about all the biopics that exaggerate or entirely fabricate conflicts in people's lives to suit the structure of a typical plot arc? what about the fighter jets in top gun that fly way too close together so they can actually fit in the camera's FOV? I think example 2 (Poor Heroes Have Expensive Lifestyles) is going a bit in this direction. is it misleading that jerry seinfeld, a more or less unknown comedian in NYC, has a huge apartment on the show? yeah, probably. would it work to film all the apartment scenes in a 450 sqft studio? probably not.
  - kidman007 6y ago
    I agree with this comment. It’s tough with this type of article, because they are almost prescriptive rather than descriptive. It says certain actions are “problematic” but doesn’t go much deeper. I think the main point of the article is to make sure to make your characters human — even if they aren’t the protagonist, which I agree with. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with having a crazy homeless character — just don’t make their defining characteristic their craziness. I did have a big problem with #5. The masses can be terrifying. Mob mentality brings out the worst in people. It happens on all sides too.
tengbretson 6y ago
Based on this article I've determined that I guess I don't really care all that much if the story I'm reading or watching is classist.
- mr_woozy 6y ago
  ditto
golergka 6y ago
This is a very curious article: it's viewpoint is obviously based on a certain political viewpoint, but the author doesn't even try to prove this viewpoint, instead assuming by default that the reader has exactly the same views. Not every author wants to actively advocate your political agenda, and not every author agrees with it.
- crumbshot 6y ago
  > it's viewpoint is obviously based on a certain political viewpoint, but the author doesn't even try to prove this viewpoint Similarly, your comment didn't specify anything about what this political viewpoint might be, nor any reasons why you think this article is based on such a viewpoint.
  - identity0 6y ago
    It's pretty clear the viewpoint is "any negative depiction of poor people is bad," and more broadly, "class divide exists and is significant."
    - crumbshot 6y ago
      Not really no, that's just your interpretation of what this supposed viewpoint may be. I don't think the author is presenting these ideas based on "any negative depiction of poor people is bad". It's more as a pointer on these common tropes that exist in storytelling, and some of the implied unrealistic assumptions that underly them.
- leetcrew 6y ago
  to be fair, the title of the article is "Five Signs Your Story Is Classist". it's probably intended for an audience of people that already agrees and is genuinely worried about representation issues in media.
- eesmith 6y ago
  "doesn't even try to prove this viewpoint" Not every essay can be a scholarly paper with full references to defend its statements. Consider this quote from the essay: """Other toxic stereotypes used to make lower-class people into jokes include crude language or behavior, having “too many” children, and being unintelligent. The United States has “hick” or “white trash” stereotypes that are often used to depict low-income white people.""" Here's a 50 minute lecture on "White Trash: The 400-Year History of Class in America" which expands on this one topic - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cPII2l-K4s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cPII2l-K4s presented by the author of a book of the same name. I found it quite insightful. That the author fails to justify every point might be because they appear to me to be well-known - and not based simply on a political agenda, but backed by sociological research.
identity0 6y ago
This article is ridiculous. 1. Many homeless people are insane. Not all, and it is more represented in TV than in real life, but it is still true. I guess it's kind of a shame that media doesn't represent homeless people better, but tropes do come partially from truth. And come on, a "thinking brain dog" is pretty funny. 2. No one wants to tune into a noir PI show and watch struggles to pay the bills and roommate drama. And don't be ridiculous, there are tons of shows that show people living in shitty conditions. 3. This point makes me think the article is satire. Seriously? It's "classist" to kill stormtroopers since they're probably just "low-middle income people making ends meet?" 4. I'm guessing this show is based off the middle ages, where commoners literally did have lice and rotting teeth. Don't forsake realism for 21st century ideals of "anti-classism." 5. This has to be a joke too. The reason collective action is "villainized" in those stories is because it went too far. Protesting is fine and whatever, but if you're causing destruction then obviously your protest movement should be villainized. It's not classist.
- dismantlethesun 6y ago
  > 2. No one wants to tune into a noir PI show and watch struggles to pay the bills and roommate drama. And don't be ridiculous, there are tons of shows that show people living in shitty conditions. The articles premise is that TV drama, shows people struggling to pay rent while living in palatial apartments. They do so, not because all TV producers and writers are crazy classists, but because it's much easier to fit a film crew and studio lighting into a large apartment than your average real-sized Manhattan studio. Writers understand this and lampshade it by giving various excuses, for example in Friends the large apartment was an inheritance from one rich-girls' grandparents, or in Jessica Jones, the building is falling apart and in a bad neighborhood so she gets a deal on rent because her presence keeps away undesirables. However, the article rightly claims this is classist. That's true in a 'fridge logic'[1] sense, but you have to suspend your disbelief if you actually want to watch the show. [1] https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeLogic https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeLogic
- eesmith 6y ago
  > It's "classist" to kill stormtroopers since they're probably just "low-middle income people making ends meet?" https://www.theonion.com/death-star-to-open-day-care-center-1819563895 https://www.theonion.com/death-star-to-open-day-care-center-... gives a very different way to think of the destruction of the Death Star. :)
HashingtheCode 6y ago
This article is the biggest, smelliest, chunky pile of lefty-woke-snowflake trash I have read in a long time. Stories.....are stories. Stories can be anything only limited to your imagination.....but oh no, here comes the woke brigade to curtail your freedom of thought and creativity to write in a manner deemed appropriate by them for fear of offending ..... who? These people need to get a life, or better still do, put all of these lefty-woke zombies on a starship and send them off into space, just like in Hitchikers Guide and Golgafrinchan Ark Fleet Ship B. "The Golgafrinchan Ark Fleet Ship B was a way of removing the basically useless citizens from the planet of Golgafrincham. A variety of stories were formed about the doom of the planet, such as blowing up, crashing into the sun or being eaten by a mutant star goat. The ship was filled with all the middlemen of Golgafrincham, such as the telephone sanitisers, account executives, hairdressers, tired TV producers, insurance salesmen, personnel officers, security guards, public relations executives, and management consultants. ....because the Ark Ship B Golgafrinchans were a 'bunch of useless idiots'." Add to the list lefty-woke-zombies-idiots url: https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Golgafrinchan_Ark_Fleet_Ship_B https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Golgafrinchan_Ark_Fleet_...
- mcphage 6y ago
  > Stories can be anything only limited to your imagination That’s completely true. And yet, so many of our stories end up in the same rut of tired, unrealistic tropes. Maybe a look at the reality behind such depictions will encourage authors to exercise some of that vaunted imagination and break out into new directions. After all, an appeal to imagination doesn’t make much sense when you’re just using it to defend doing the same things that everybody else does.
  - HashingtheCode 6y ago
    > unrealistic tropes mmmmm...some tropes are rooted firmly in reality, maybe a little exaggerated sometimes, but there is truth to them nonetheless, just like there is some truth stereotypes. I think there is nothing inherently wrong with using tropes. Freedom to choose is what is important. If the author wants to use tropes, they should be able to.
steve76 6y ago
Who is the true enemy behind this all? Who stands to profit from all this? What fools have we been. The answer has been in front of us ... ... ... this entire time ... ... ... The nationwide collective of behavioral health centers and intellectual disability assisted living facilities which grow in size and power, everyday! There you go my friends, our true enemy has revealed itself. Expand the perimeter. Eventually we are all enveloped. Admission criteria lowers. Eventually we are all drawn to the siren. Productivity increases. Rigorous study, ambitious networking, and bold free market moves cannot compete against the structured day plan collective. Not just the ever growing mob either. Tom Steyer, Soros, Michelle Obama, only a matter of time before you, me, all of us are locked away relegated to morning exercises, planned meals, vocational training and art therapy. Forget the first human on mars or woman on the moon or commercial docking in orbit. The one to look out for is the first "special person" in orbit. Whoever does that wins by condemning this world, dooming us all.

25 points by BerislavLopac 6y ago

mrxd 6y ago

The weird thing is that this article is in itself elitist. Cultural moralizing comes from a place of superiority and trying to morally improve the public. Inequality exists because the elite class holds political power, not because there is stigma and bigotry against the working class.

AnimalMuppet 6y ago
Hmm, yeah. "You should write this way, and not that way" says that "this way" is morally superior to "that way". That's classism in culture telling you to not be classist in terms of economics.
- mrxd 6y ago
  I wouldn't say that morality is classist per se. The idea of writers influencing the minds of their readers seems paternalistic, because the reading public are treated as impressionable children who need protection and guidance from their betters. And then it's a small step to saying maybe they shouldn't be trusted to vote, either.
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    I would say that classism often becomes paternalistic on the part of the "upper" class, so I see a fair amount of overlap between classism and paternalism. And I actually think that some ideas are better than others, and so are some versions of morality. And I think that those who have the better systems should teach them. But they need to do so with a fair amount of sensitivity and humility, not with arrogance. But then, I'm not the one preaching against classism.

true_religion 6y ago

> Plus, homeless people aren’t all older white guys.... > when heroes focus on petty criminals because it encourages the over-policing of impoverished neighborhoods, particularly Black ones.... > United States has “hick” or “white trash” stereotypes ... however, any negative class-based stereotypes also impact them [people of color] a great deal As a person of colour, I am not a fan of this trope where white writers[1] will make everything even vaguely demeaning about the downtrodden, somehow related to minorities. All of the examples, given were of white people. Can bad representations of white people not simply remain encapsulated to them? Saying that everything related to the impoverished must by some means also relate to people of colour is not only clearly wrong, but the classism that the author is ranting against. Lastly, the author is wrong where she writes > White supremacists are natural villains but shouldn’t be glorified even a little, which limits their effectiveness as a fictional threat... The critical success of Lovecraft Country which features villainous racist wizards, puts this to shame, as does the success of Watchmen before it which shed light on the Bombing of Tusla (aka Black Wall Street Massacre) that a whole generation of children likely did not learn about before. In other examples, comic book villains have historically been associated with America's enemy du'jour. Hydra is no less dramatic or effective in fiction, simply because they are Nazis. [1] The author, Chris Winkle, is a white woman.

hirundo 6y ago

This is all about classism toward the poor. Are classist tropes about the rich not a concern? Or can there be no classism toward the rich in the same way, some claim, there can be no racism toward whites?

BurningFrog 6y ago
Think of that not as a claim, but as a competing definition of the word(s).
wilsonrocks 6y ago
I don't think the rich are particularly held back by any classism they might experience.
- true_religion 6y ago
  By logic, if the rich are held back by any wide spread ideology in society, they tend to fall back into poverty. For example, black nouveau-riche in New Orleans falling into utter poverty once Jim Crow laws were passed, or in feudal societies where self-titled merchant princes would always fallback to becoming common nobodies in time because they were not real hereditary aristocrats and thus didn't get first pick at any new trade route, or crown-backed company.
  - wilsonrocks 6y ago
    Interesting example, and yes these cases are valid... I think I should have explicitly rather than implicitly defined class as more broad than just 'has a lot of money' - these examples are kind of 'working class but became successful' rather than 'upper class'? Edit - and then used that definition rather than just saying The Rich

cataphract 6y ago

It's one thing to point out these stereotypes, but a bit presumptuous to tell writers what they should write. Not all works need to have the subtle, nuanced and realistic depictions the author advocates for. He also basically disavows any humor built around negative stereotypes of certain groups, which would put a big percentage of comedy off-limits.

golergka 6y ago
Author does not advocate fo subtle, nuanced or even realistic depictions though: > Depicting poor characters is great, but avoid making them lazy, dirty, crude, ignorant, or unintelligent. From a lot of very personal experience with poor working class, this norm throws realism completely out of the window.
leetcrew 6y ago
I dunno, I see two sides to it. like it or not, popular shows/movies/books have a powerful influence over the way people see the world. having a large audience does come with a certain responsibility. but if you accept this idea, why stop with the examples presented in the article? what about all the biopics that exaggerate or entirely fabricate conflicts in people's lives to suit the structure of a typical plot arc? what about the fighter jets in top gun that fly way too close together so they can actually fit in the camera's FOV? I think example 2 (Poor Heroes Have Expensive Lifestyles) is going a bit in this direction. is it misleading that jerry seinfeld, a more or less unknown comedian in NYC, has a huge apartment on the show? yeah, probably. would it work to film all the apartment scenes in a 450 sqft studio? probably not.
- kidman007 6y ago
  I agree with this comment. It’s tough with this type of article, because they are almost prescriptive rather than descriptive. It says certain actions are “problematic” but doesn’t go much deeper. I think the main point of the article is to make sure to make your characters human — even if they aren’t the protagonist, which I agree with. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with having a crazy homeless character — just don’t make their defining characteristic their craziness. I did have a big problem with #5. The masses can be terrifying. Mob mentality brings out the worst in people. It happens on all sides too.

tengbretson 6y ago

Based on this article I've determined that I guess I don't really care all that much if the story I'm reading or watching is classist.

mr_woozy 6y ago
ditto

golergka 6y ago

This is a very curious article: it's viewpoint is obviously based on a certain political viewpoint, but the author doesn't even try to prove this viewpoint, instead assuming by default that the reader has exactly the same views. Not every author wants to actively advocate your political agenda, and not every author agrees with it.

crumbshot 6y ago
> it's viewpoint is obviously based on a certain political viewpoint, but the author doesn't even try to prove this viewpoint Similarly, your comment didn't specify anything about what this political viewpoint might be, nor any reasons why you think this article is based on such a viewpoint.
- identity0 6y ago
  It's pretty clear the viewpoint is "any negative depiction of poor people is bad," and more broadly, "class divide exists and is significant."
  - crumbshot 6y ago
    Not really no, that's just your interpretation of what this supposed viewpoint may be. I don't think the author is presenting these ideas based on "any negative depiction of poor people is bad". It's more as a pointer on these common tropes that exist in storytelling, and some of the implied unrealistic assumptions that underly them.
leetcrew 6y ago
to be fair, the title of the article is "Five Signs Your Story Is Classist". it's probably intended for an audience of people that already agrees and is genuinely worried about representation issues in media.
eesmith 6y ago
"doesn't even try to prove this viewpoint" Not every essay can be a scholarly paper with full references to defend its statements. Consider this quote from the essay: """Other toxic stereotypes used to make lower-class people into jokes include crude language or behavior, having “too many” children, and being unintelligent. The United States has “hick” or “white trash” stereotypes that are often used to depict low-income white people.""" Here's a 50 minute lecture on "White Trash: The 400-Year History of Class in America" which expands on this one topic - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cPII2l-K4s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cPII2l-K4s presented by the author of a book of the same name. I found it quite insightful. That the author fails to justify every point might be because they appear to me to be well-known - and not based simply on a political agenda, but backed by sociological research.

identity0 6y ago

This article is ridiculous. 1. Many homeless people are insane. Not all, and it is more represented in TV than in real life, but it is still true. I guess it's kind of a shame that media doesn't represent homeless people better, but tropes do come partially from truth. And come on, a "thinking brain dog" is pretty funny. 2. No one wants to tune into a noir PI show and watch struggles to pay the bills and roommate drama. And don't be ridiculous, there are tons of shows that show people living in shitty conditions. 3. This point makes me think the article is satire. Seriously? It's "classist" to kill stormtroopers since they're probably just "low-middle income people making ends meet?" 4. I'm guessing this show is based off the middle ages, where commoners literally did have lice and rotting teeth. Don't forsake realism for 21st century ideals of "anti-classism." 5. This has to be a joke too. The reason collective action is "villainized" in those stories is because it went too far. Protesting is fine and whatever, but if you're causing destruction then obviously your protest movement should be villainized. It's not classist.

dismantlethesun 6y ago
> 2. No one wants to tune into a noir PI show and watch struggles to pay the bills and roommate drama. And don't be ridiculous, there are tons of shows that show people living in shitty conditions. The articles premise is that TV drama, shows people struggling to pay rent while living in palatial apartments. They do so, not because all TV producers and writers are crazy classists, but because it's much easier to fit a film crew and studio lighting into a large apartment than your average real-sized Manhattan studio. Writers understand this and lampshade it by giving various excuses, for example in Friends the large apartment was an inheritance from one rich-girls' grandparents, or in Jessica Jones, the building is falling apart and in a bad neighborhood so she gets a deal on rent because her presence keeps away undesirables. However, the article rightly claims this is classist. That's true in a 'fridge logic'[1] sense, but you have to suspend your disbelief if you actually want to watch the show. [1] https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeLogic https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeLogic
eesmith 6y ago
> It's "classist" to kill stormtroopers since they're probably just "low-middle income people making ends meet?" https://www.theonion.com/death-star-to-open-day-care-center-1819563895 https://www.theonion.com/death-star-to-open-day-care-center-... gives a very different way to think of the destruction of the Death Star. :)

HashingtheCode 6y ago

This article is the biggest, smelliest, chunky pile of lefty-woke-snowflake trash I have read in a long time. Stories.....are stories. Stories can be anything only limited to your imagination.....but oh no, here comes the woke brigade to curtail your freedom of thought and creativity to write in a manner deemed appropriate by them for fear of offending ..... who? These people need to get a life, or better still do, put all of these lefty-woke zombies on a starship and send them off into space, just like in Hitchikers Guide and Golgafrinchan Ark Fleet Ship B. "The Golgafrinchan Ark Fleet Ship B was a way of removing the basically useless citizens from the planet of Golgafrincham. A variety of stories were formed about the doom of the planet, such as blowing up, crashing into the sun or being eaten by a mutant star goat. The ship was filled with all the middlemen of Golgafrincham, such as the telephone sanitisers, account executives, hairdressers, tired TV producers, insurance salesmen, personnel officers, security guards, public relations executives, and management consultants. ....because the Ark Ship B Golgafrinchans were a 'bunch of useless idiots'." Add to the list lefty-woke-zombies-idiots url: https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Golgafrinchan_Ark_Fleet_Ship_B https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Golgafrinchan_Ark_Fleet_...

mcphage 6y ago
> Stories can be anything only limited to your imagination That’s completely true. And yet, so many of our stories end up in the same rut of tired, unrealistic tropes. Maybe a look at the reality behind such depictions will encourage authors to exercise some of that vaunted imagination and break out into new directions. After all, an appeal to imagination doesn’t make much sense when you’re just using it to defend doing the same things that everybody else does.
- HashingtheCode 6y ago
  > unrealistic tropes mmmmm...some tropes are rooted firmly in reality, maybe a little exaggerated sometimes, but there is truth to them nonetheless, just like there is some truth stereotypes. I think there is nothing inherently wrong with using tropes. Freedom to choose is what is important. If the author wants to use tropes, they should be able to.

steve76 6y ago

Who is the true enemy behind this all? Who stands to profit from all this? What fools have we been. The answer has been in front of us ... ... ... this entire time ... ... ... The nationwide collective of behavioral health centers and intellectual disability assisted living facilities which grow in size and power, everyday! There you go my friends, our true enemy has revealed itself. Expand the perimeter. Eventually we are all enveloped. Admission criteria lowers. Eventually we are all drawn to the siren. Productivity increases. Rigorous study, ambitious networking, and bold free market moves cannot compete against the structured day plan collective. Not just the ever growing mob either. Tom Steyer, Soros, Michelle Obama, only a matter of time before you, me, all of us are locked away relegated to morning exercises, planned meals, vocational training and art therapy. Forget the first human on mars or woman on the moon or commercial docking in orbit. The one to look out for is the first "special person" in orbit. Whoever does that wins by condemning this world, dooming us all.