5 ms·

That Yeltsin story is a great anecdote but surely the Soviets did enough (and way more) spying to know basic and everyday facts about the US, like whether super

That Yeltsin story is a great anecdote but surely the Soviets did enough (and way more) spying to know basic and everyday facts about the US, like whether supermarket shelves are stocked. I mean, how much does it take to know this fact?

kmeisthax 6y ago
Most Soviet citizens weren't spies or diplomats and had no means or authorization to travel outside of the iron curtain. Pravda was never going to tell the masses about this and that was enough.
baybal2 6y ago
> I mean, how much does it take to know this fact? I believe nothing can dispel the disbelief people outside of ex-Union feel about what you point to, other than living through that surreal time, but it was really like this. Out of all Soviet defectors to the West, the biggest groups were: 1. diplomats, 2. spies, 3. military. All who were entitled to see that.
082349872349872 6y ago
1976 soviet TV docco about New York: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI2_olezbbA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI2_olezbbA Didn't see any supermarkets, closest I found in a quick scrub was a shopping bag at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI2_olezbbA&t=1100 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI2_olezbbA&t=1100 San Francisco supermarket in Little Italy getting plenty of deliveries? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swdtgcaFess&t=1085 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swdtgcaFess&t=1085 California (1974) orchards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytE_RDrsmMg&t=445 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytE_RDrsmMg&t=445 and of course, the Mouse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytE_RDrsmMg&t=1127 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytE_RDrsmMg&t=1127 Also no supermarkets along the 1976 Mississippi, but they did make it to the French Quarter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7xo7rtSwwI&t=1615 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7xo7rtSwwI&t=1615 Luxury shopping in Dallas (1978) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCQzMJd4kiM&t=1942 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCQzMJd4kiM&t=1942 No supermarkets in Pittsburg (1975) but for some reason they went to the unemployment lines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgfq1isLUUI&t=1200 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgfq1isLUUI&t=1200 Los Angeles, with more Disneyland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmZMJvFVKiA&t=2725 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmZMJvFVKiA&t=2725 (and wide freeways with lots of cars) 1974 DC has plenty of monuments, white house, pentagon, protestors: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvy2fYVs5iw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvy2fYVs5iw (but the cars have changed in the intervening half century)
- baybal2 6y ago
  > 1976 soviet TV docco about New York: Even such documentaries were curtailed, nor aired, or aired only in Moscow and very later, or screened privately. This particular ones seem to be aimed not on your average union's citizen, and it feels much more like "internal propaganda." Such things were screened to lower level CPSU members, and whomever amounted to social elites as prophylaxis exactly against such scenario as above,
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    I've also run across a few major US cities in filmstrips on https://diafilmy.su https://diafilmy.su , were those censored as well?
    - baybal2 6y ago
      I never saw USSR myself, but for few very blurry memories of my first years of life I barely recall. But from my lifelong interest studying how countries work, and fail, I would tell that an average union's citizen would be given a chance to see such inoculatory dosages of "truths" a dozen or so times in his life, the more the higher the rank the person has in the society. And that for most, the exposure to it will pass more or less without consequences, given how watered down it was. I believe their rationale for engaging in the later was to influence their own elites as much as they can until the level where the benefit from it comes close to the harm from truth stirring up "proles." I'd say a half of all adult, moderately intellectually developed, working age people by eighties had an idea in principle that: 1. USA is more well off than the union, some even knew by how much from smuggled Western press. 2. That all communists are liars, and that the CPSU is now corrupt beyond salvation. 3. That Radio Liberty is probably not all lie. 4. USA is probably less corrupt than USSR, or at least their bosses don't steal more than half of worker's salary. 5. That it's possible that not all Americans were millionaires, but nevertheless, even some non-millionaires may be able to afford a car in USA... 6. That CPSU keeps microdosing them with much distorted, and watered down depictions of reality in, and outside of the union, in just enough dosage as to preserve CPSU's last vestiges of credibility, as to make what they say not entirely silly.
ben_w 6y ago
The spies would know, but would they risk taking their handlers for fear or being accused of being corrupted by capitalism? Ditto upward every level of the chain. You don’t even need to fear being shipped off to Siberia; judging by the news, the current administrations of both the USA and the UK are making people afraid to tell them the inevitable consequences of their decisions, and that’s just fear of losing their current jobs.
solarexplorer 6y ago
It is not the same to know something from a book or tv and experiencing it in first person. * Just ask any person from east Germany who went to the west after the wall came down. Even though they knew it all from tv etc, actually being there and seeing it themselves made a huge impression on everybody. After that the communist elites in the east were immediately powerless. * I was one of those persons and I can assure you that it was very impressive and changed everything...
mc32 6y ago
Propaganda and indoctrination make it hard to believe what your eyes see. It takes years to believe your own eyes, so it’s no surprise that most people would dismiss to them unverifiable accounts that differed from what they heard daily.
bena 6y ago
If you were to look at stuff coming out of North Korea, you'd see the veneer of wealth and plenty as well. So the simple answer is "We lie about this, therefore, they must also be lying about this."

kmeisthax 6y ago

Most Soviet citizens weren't spies or diplomats and had no means or authorization to travel outside of the iron curtain. Pravda was never going to tell the masses about this and that was enough.

baybal2 6y ago

> I mean, how much does it take to know this fact? I believe nothing can dispel the disbelief people outside of ex-Union feel about what you point to, other than living through that surreal time, but it was really like this. Out of all Soviet defectors to the West, the biggest groups were: 1. diplomats, 2. spies, 3. military. All who were entitled to see that.

082349872349872 6y ago

1976 soviet TV docco about New York: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI2_olezbbA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI2_olezbbA Didn't see any supermarkets, closest I found in a quick scrub was a shopping bag at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI2_olezbbA&t=1100 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI2_olezbbA&t=1100 San Francisco supermarket in Little Italy getting plenty of deliveries? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swdtgcaFess&t=1085 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swdtgcaFess&t=1085 California (1974) orchards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytE_RDrsmMg&t=445 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytE_RDrsmMg&t=445 and of course, the Mouse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytE_RDrsmMg&t=1127 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytE_RDrsmMg&t=1127 Also no supermarkets along the 1976 Mississippi, but they did make it to the French Quarter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7xo7rtSwwI&t=1615 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7xo7rtSwwI&t=1615 Luxury shopping in Dallas (1978) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCQzMJd4kiM&t=1942 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCQzMJd4kiM&t=1942 No supermarkets in Pittsburg (1975) but for some reason they went to the unemployment lines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgfq1isLUUI&t=1200 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgfq1isLUUI&t=1200 Los Angeles, with more Disneyland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmZMJvFVKiA&t=2725 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmZMJvFVKiA&t=2725 (and wide freeways with lots of cars) 1974 DC has plenty of monuments, white house, pentagon, protestors: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvy2fYVs5iw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvy2fYVs5iw (but the cars have changed in the intervening half century)

baybal2 6y ago
> 1976 soviet TV docco about New York: Even such documentaries were curtailed, nor aired, or aired only in Moscow and very later, or screened privately. This particular ones seem to be aimed not on your average union's citizen, and it feels much more like "internal propaganda." Such things were screened to lower level CPSU members, and whomever amounted to social elites as prophylaxis exactly against such scenario as above,
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  I've also run across a few major US cities in filmstrips on https://diafilmy.su https://diafilmy.su , were those censored as well?
  - baybal2 6y ago
    I never saw USSR myself, but for few very blurry memories of my first years of life I barely recall. But from my lifelong interest studying how countries work, and fail, I would tell that an average union's citizen would be given a chance to see such inoculatory dosages of "truths" a dozen or so times in his life, the more the higher the rank the person has in the society. And that for most, the exposure to it will pass more or less without consequences, given how watered down it was. I believe their rationale for engaging in the later was to influence their own elites as much as they can until the level where the benefit from it comes close to the harm from truth stirring up "proles." I'd say a half of all adult, moderately intellectually developed, working age people by eighties had an idea in principle that: 1. USA is more well off than the union, some even knew by how much from smuggled Western press. 2. That all communists are liars, and that the CPSU is now corrupt beyond salvation. 3. That Radio Liberty is probably not all lie. 4. USA is probably less corrupt than USSR, or at least their bosses don't steal more than half of worker's salary. 5. That it's possible that not all Americans were millionaires, but nevertheless, even some non-millionaires may be able to afford a car in USA... 6. That CPSU keeps microdosing them with much distorted, and watered down depictions of reality in, and outside of the union, in just enough dosage as to preserve CPSU's last vestiges of credibility, as to make what they say not entirely silly.

ben_w 6y ago

The spies would know, but would they risk taking their handlers for fear or being accused of being corrupted by capitalism? Ditto upward every level of the chain. You don’t even need to fear being shipped off to Siberia; judging by the news, the current administrations of both the USA and the UK are making people afraid to tell them the inevitable consequences of their decisions, and that’s just fear of losing their current jobs.

solarexplorer 6y ago

It is not the same to know something from a book or tv and experiencing it in first person. * Just ask any person from east Germany who went to the west after the wall came down. Even though they knew it all from tv etc, actually being there and seeing it themselves made a huge impression on everybody. After that the communist elites in the east were immediately powerless. * I was one of those persons and I can assure you that it was very impressive and changed everything...

mc32 6y ago

Propaganda and indoctrination make it hard to believe what your eyes see. It takes years to believe your own eyes, so it’s no surprise that most people would dismiss to them unverifiable accounts that differed from what they heard daily.

bena 6y ago

If you were to look at stuff coming out of North Korea, you'd see the veneer of wealth and plenty as well. So the simple answer is "We lie about this, therefore, they must also be lying about this."