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So, let's say it's a Tannerite pipe bomb. Someone could be wandering around the protest exercising their 2nd amendment right with a Tannerite pipe bomb. I don

So, let's say it's a Tannerite pipe bomb. Someone could be wandering around the protest exercising their 2nd amendment right with a Tannerite pipe bomb. I don't want to be anywhere near that guy because he's probably a little unhinged, but it's not something that would raise my eyebrows these days if I saw it on the news.

sbierwagen 6y ago
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5845 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5845 >The term “destructive device” means (1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellent charge of more than four ounces, (D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E) mine, or (F) similar device; I would argue that packing tannerite into a capped pipe turns it into a grenade or bomb, and thus a destructive device.
- phobosanomaly 6y ago
  Ok, fair enough. That's a good point. But, I'm not convinced because the pipe doesn't seem all that dissimilar to the 'target container' that the explosive is placed in prior to legal use. From the Tannerite website, these are the instructions for use: 1. Start by emptying the contents of the target into the mixing container. 2. Next, open the packet containing the catalyst and pour it into the mixing container. 3. Secure the lid and shake the container until you achieve a uniform color throughout the mixture. 4. Then pour the combined mixture back into the target container until it completely fills the target container then secure the lid. 5. Always place Tannerite® Brand targets at least 100 yards away from the shooter and/or spectators. https://tannerite.com/binary-target-faq/ https://tannerite.com/binary-target-faq/ What is the difference between a capped pipe and the 'target container?' Legally, what makes the leap from legal, to 'destructive device.'
  - bigbubba 6y ago
    IANAL: What I've heard is that according to the government unmixed tannerite is 'not an explosive' but once you mix it, it becomes an explosive. And you need permits and licensing to transport or store an explosive, but not to make (mix) it and use it immediately. You can't mix it at home, put it in your car, then drive to the gun range to use it. However I would expect the feds to find a way to charge you if they found unmixed tannerite and pipebomb parts in your backpack.. maybe constructive intent? I would hope so anyway.
    - phobosanomaly 6y ago
      That's a great point. I didn't take into account the legal consideration of intent. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/intent https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/intent So, I guess if the FBI knew hypothetical pipe bomber was around, they would arrest him. If it was the FBI, and they were looking for him specifically, they would most likely have sufficient additional evidence to prove intent. This is because he would have had to get on their radar somehow, and however that happened would likely supply sufficient evidence to prove intent. Local police would have to take a different approach, since they would have a much more difficult time proving intent. If they just arrested some random guy with tannerite and a pipe, the prosecutor would then have to go out and construct a case for intent from scratch.
  - petertodd 6y ago
    Good video on the legality of tannerite, from someone with a license to manufacture explosives: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnXOMMjBcEU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnXOMMjBcEU tl;dr: The moment you mix tannerite it becomes an explosive, and about the only legal thing you can do with it is blow it up in a safe manner. Though obviously, that's just a "tl;dr" from a non-lawyer watching a youtube video by a non-lawyer. :)
    - phobosanomaly 6y ago
      That is 100% consistent with what is written on the ATF website. https://www.atf.gov/explosives/binary-explosives https://www.atf.gov/explosives/binary-explosives I am curious, however, if it legally becomes a regulated explosive when mixed, how would the law deal with an explosive device that only mixed the compound at the moment of detonation. For example, a pipe bomb where the binary explosives were separated by plastic bags, but there was a wire that would be pulled through the device prior to detonation, mixing the two compounds. I realize that it's kind of a weird edge-case, but I'm just sort of pushing it there because I'm curious and I want to see how far I can take the argument before I'm clearly wrong.
      - petertodd 6y ago
        An interesting question along those lines is what's the status of flour bombs? Powder explosions can be pretty powerful if conditions are just right. I've heard of authorities accidentally(1) outlawing the mixing of vinegar and baking soda in attempts to make dry-ice bombs illegal... so who knows? 1) as in, some lawyers thought the laws as written were broad enough to cover that in theory - I've never heard of someone actually being arrested on that basis.
        phobosanomaly 6y ago
        That's another really interesting point. Blowing flour out of the palm of my hand into a lit BBQ cost me half my eyebrows as a child. The ability of airborne flour to burn is kind of incredible if you haven't seen it in person.

sbierwagen 6y ago

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5845 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5845 >The term “destructive device” means (1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellent charge of more than four ounces, (D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E) mine, or (F) similar device; I would argue that packing tannerite into a capped pipe turns it into a grenade or bomb, and thus a destructive device.

phobosanomaly 6y ago
Ok, fair enough. That's a good point. But, I'm not convinced because the pipe doesn't seem all that dissimilar to the 'target container' that the explosive is placed in prior to legal use. From the Tannerite website, these are the instructions for use: 1. Start by emptying the contents of the target into the mixing container. 2. Next, open the packet containing the catalyst and pour it into the mixing container. 3. Secure the lid and shake the container until you achieve a uniform color throughout the mixture. 4. Then pour the combined mixture back into the target container until it completely fills the target container then secure the lid. 5. Always place Tannerite® Brand targets at least 100 yards away from the shooter and/or spectators. https://tannerite.com/binary-target-faq/ https://tannerite.com/binary-target-faq/ What is the difference between a capped pipe and the 'target container?' Legally, what makes the leap from legal, to 'destructive device.'
- bigbubba 6y ago
  IANAL: What I've heard is that according to the government unmixed tannerite is 'not an explosive' but once you mix it, it becomes an explosive. And you need permits and licensing to transport or store an explosive, but not to make (mix) it and use it immediately. You can't mix it at home, put it in your car, then drive to the gun range to use it. However I would expect the feds to find a way to charge you if they found unmixed tannerite and pipebomb parts in your backpack.. maybe constructive intent? I would hope so anyway.
  - phobosanomaly 6y ago
    That's a great point. I didn't take into account the legal consideration of intent. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/intent https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/intent So, I guess if the FBI knew hypothetical pipe bomber was around, they would arrest him. If it was the FBI, and they were looking for him specifically, they would most likely have sufficient additional evidence to prove intent. This is because he would have had to get on their radar somehow, and however that happened would likely supply sufficient evidence to prove intent. Local police would have to take a different approach, since they would have a much more difficult time proving intent. If they just arrested some random guy with tannerite and a pipe, the prosecutor would then have to go out and construct a case for intent from scratch.
- petertodd 6y ago
  Good video on the legality of tannerite, from someone with a license to manufacture explosives: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnXOMMjBcEU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnXOMMjBcEU tl;dr: The moment you mix tannerite it becomes an explosive, and about the only legal thing you can do with it is blow it up in a safe manner. Though obviously, that's just a "tl;dr" from a non-lawyer watching a youtube video by a non-lawyer. :)
  - phobosanomaly 6y ago
    That is 100% consistent with what is written on the ATF website. https://www.atf.gov/explosives/binary-explosives https://www.atf.gov/explosives/binary-explosives I am curious, however, if it legally becomes a regulated explosive when mixed, how would the law deal with an explosive device that only mixed the compound at the moment of detonation. For example, a pipe bomb where the binary explosives were separated by plastic bags, but there was a wire that would be pulled through the device prior to detonation, mixing the two compounds. I realize that it's kind of a weird edge-case, but I'm just sort of pushing it there because I'm curious and I want to see how far I can take the argument before I'm clearly wrong.
    - petertodd 6y ago
      An interesting question along those lines is what's the status of flour bombs? Powder explosions can be pretty powerful if conditions are just right. I've heard of authorities accidentally(1) outlawing the mixing of vinegar and baking soda in attempts to make dry-ice bombs illegal... so who knows? 1) as in, some lawyers thought the laws as written were broad enough to cover that in theory - I've never heard of someone actually being arrested on that basis.
      - phobosanomaly 6y ago
        That's another really interesting point. Blowing flour out of the palm of my hand into a lit BBQ cost me half my eyebrows as a child. The ability of airborne flour to burn is kind of incredible if you haven't seen it in person.