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Thomas Sowell argues something along the lines of: "Admitting people into college when they do not have the academic merit to be accepted harms them because th

Thomas Sowell argues something along the lines of: "Admitting people into college when they do not have the academic merit to be accepted harms them because they end up failing out of their class, even if they could have been wildly successful at a less rigorous university." Perhaps they're referring to this line of argument?

slg 6y ago
Maybe this is true at schools further down the competitiveness hierarchy, but this isn't going to be true at Yale. The number of people who can do the work at a school like Yale is going be drastically outpace the number of people admitted. They aren't reaching to accept candidates who can't do the work.
- sebmellen 6y ago
  I don't know. Sowell is a controversial figure, of course, but highly respected and educated. He served as a professor at Cornell, where he said this dynamic was extremely apparent, and it saddened him because there were many such students in his class who would've been top of their grade at a "Tier 2" university. I'll try to find the source, from one of his books.
  - slg 6y ago
    Directly from Yale:[1] >We estimate that over three quarters of the students who apply for admission to Yale are qualified to do the work here. The great majority of students who are admitted stand out from the rest because a lot of little things, when added up, tip the scale in their favor. Their applicant pool is so deep that they have their pick of qualified students of every type. They aren't admitting people who can't do the work just to meet some quota. [1] - https://admissions.yale.edu/what-yale-looks-for https://admissions.yale.edu/what-yale-looks-for
    - sebmellen 6y ago
      Ok, but it's not so much about being able to do the work as where you fall in the class. It seems unavoidable that a policy like this will cluster black students lower in their class, which is demoralizing and probably has the opposite of its intended effect.
      - slg 6y ago
        Your first comment was about people "failing out" and now it isn't "about being able to do the work" but instead the problem is these students are "lower in their class". Those goalposts moved quickly. But let's say your theory is true and that the lower ranks of Yale's graduating classes are full of Black students, why is that a problem? Is getting bad grades at Yale going to damage your life? Are people graduating low in their class from elite universities worse off than people graduating higher in their class from worst universities? Plenty of successful people weren't highly ranked in their graduating class. Getting bad grades at an elite university like Yale seems to almost be a requirement to run for president nowadays. And regardless of the admission policies, some people have to end up being the worst ranked in their graduating class. Why does it matter if it is a Black students or anyone else?
        antepodius 6y ago
        Being the worst in the class a) makes you more likely to fail university b) threatens to make you feel like a fraudulent idiot, undermining your self-confidence in the long run. Would I personally pick worst in class at a top uni over middle or best a level lower? Eh, probably.
        sebmellen 6y ago
        No, I'm not moving the goalposts! Sowell's point is exactly that - being the worst in your class, and sharing that with all your peers of the same race, is tantamount to constant demoralization and disenfranchisement. This dynamic leads to higher drop out rates. Either way, it's really not my theory. It's something Thomas Sowell documented in one of his books. Here he is talking about it: "Thomas Sowell: affirmative action creates academic failure & resentment" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVvnTByzTmA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVvnTByzTmA. Sowell is black, if it matters. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell.
- username90 6y ago
  Being the worst in class greatly harms your confidence though while being the best in class greatly boosts it. The effects of being the worst and seeing others like you also being the worst for 4 years throughout college will create a stigma lasting a lifetime. The current system ensures that most black college students will be among the worst in their class. If instead we did race blind admissions then black students would get into less prestigious universities but they would perform just as well as everyone else at those universities, which would let us start working away the stigma against black students.

slg 6y ago

Maybe this is true at schools further down the competitiveness hierarchy, but this isn't going to be true at Yale. The number of people who can do the work at a school like Yale is going be drastically outpace the number of people admitted. They aren't reaching to accept candidates who can't do the work.

sebmellen 6y ago
I don't know. Sowell is a controversial figure, of course, but highly respected and educated. He served as a professor at Cornell, where he said this dynamic was extremely apparent, and it saddened him because there were many such students in his class who would've been top of their grade at a "Tier 2" university. I'll try to find the source, from one of his books.
- slg 6y ago
  Directly from Yale:[1] >We estimate that over three quarters of the students who apply for admission to Yale are qualified to do the work here. The great majority of students who are admitted stand out from the rest because a lot of little things, when added up, tip the scale in their favor. Their applicant pool is so deep that they have their pick of qualified students of every type. They aren't admitting people who can't do the work just to meet some quota. [1] - https://admissions.yale.edu/what-yale-looks-for https://admissions.yale.edu/what-yale-looks-for
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    Ok, but it's not so much about being able to do the work as where you fall in the class. It seems unavoidable that a policy like this will cluster black students lower in their class, which is demoralizing and probably has the opposite of its intended effect.
    - slg 6y ago
      Your first comment was about people "failing out" and now it isn't "about being able to do the work" but instead the problem is these students are "lower in their class". Those goalposts moved quickly. But let's say your theory is true and that the lower ranks of Yale's graduating classes are full of Black students, why is that a problem? Is getting bad grades at Yale going to damage your life? Are people graduating low in their class from elite universities worse off than people graduating higher in their class from worst universities? Plenty of successful people weren't highly ranked in their graduating class. Getting bad grades at an elite university like Yale seems to almost be a requirement to run for president nowadays. And regardless of the admission policies, some people have to end up being the worst ranked in their graduating class. Why does it matter if it is a Black students or anyone else?
      - antepodius 6y ago
        Being the worst in the class a) makes you more likely to fail university b) threatens to make you feel like a fraudulent idiot, undermining your self-confidence in the long run. Would I personally pick worst in class at a top uni over middle or best a level lower? Eh, probably.
      - sebmellen 6y ago
        No, I'm not moving the goalposts! Sowell's point is exactly that - being the worst in your class, and sharing that with all your peers of the same race, is tantamount to constant demoralization and disenfranchisement. This dynamic leads to higher drop out rates. Either way, it's really not my theory. It's something Thomas Sowell documented in one of his books. Here he is talking about it: "Thomas Sowell: affirmative action creates academic failure & resentment" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVvnTByzTmA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVvnTByzTmA. Sowell is black, if it matters. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell.
username90 6y ago
Being the worst in class greatly harms your confidence though while being the best in class greatly boosts it. The effects of being the worst and seeing others like you also being the worst for 4 years throughout college will create a stigma lasting a lifetime. The current system ensures that most black college students will be among the worst in their class. If instead we did race blind admissions then black students would get into less prestigious universities but they would perform just as well as everyone else at those universities, which would let us start working away the stigma against black students.