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Understood, and yes my comment was harsh, perhaps a bit much so However `Enterprise tools like HashiCorp Vault and AWS Parameter Store felt like we were stuck

Understood, and yes my comment was harsh, perhaps a bit much so However `Enterprise tools like HashiCorp Vault and AWS Parameter Store felt like we were stuck using FTP instead of Dropbox!` is in itself bashing other peoples' work, and misleading prospective users. It's not alright to mislead people, and the trends over the years of new engineers without a ton of experience looking at a battle-hardened, vetted system with their one specific use case and no understanding of the endless numbers of refinements that resulted in the predominant solution that solves more problems and edge cases than just their partially understood use case, is... why we have shit like this coming out of Apple (for example) https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/macl.html https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/macl.html Despite being a millennial, I can't help but agree with this sentiment: > When I try to list the contents of the Documents folder in Terminal, I get a permissions dialog, because Millennials are killing Unix. Understand _why_ things are done the way they are before you write them off as inferior and re-invent the wheel, otherwise you'll simply discover all the things you didn't understand previously, and create effectively the same solution, only poorly implemented and without all the vetting and refinement that went into what was already there before you came and "did it better".

rswail 6y ago
Not to start a flamewar, but as a 35 year veteran, the permissions dialog is the same as what SELinux would give you. Apple are implementing an RBAC and require authentication and authorization on a per-app basis. This is on top of their SEP and read only System volumes with secure boot. Leave aside the argument about system openness to modification, that is beyond Unix's security and permissions model. Sure, Unix offers some of that with chmod and mount options, but it's hardly a comprehensive solution.
- quinndiggity 6y ago
  Great input; not flame war enticing, just facts, and I respect your 20 year head start - implicit memory is only attainable by experiencing things first hand, and I appreciate that. Perhaps not the greatest example was provided, but the general sentiment I was aiming for was when disdain is expressed for tools without taking the time to understand what their intended (and practical) purposes are, and how they are effectively used. When you have used a tool and understand it well, and witness another person go off on a tangent about how "Android is complete garbage, why would they ever do this this way", you naturally question that person's capability or whether they know what they are doing. In my experience, the person venting about how a tool sucks will 15-20 minutes later realize "oh. that's why.", or otherwise head off to roll their own implementation and 15 working days later realize "oh. that's why." or get into production and cause an outage from missing several edge cases. On the macOS topic, it is odd that the root user no longer functions as one would expect in the Unix model (for example, cli tools which can no longer list OS processes, which haven't had any issues during the amount of time I've used them). It is frustrating that a wide variety of tools no longer work correctly as a result of some of these changes as well; for example, emacs can no longer navigate my filesystem. All said and done, my day to day work has been via Linux workstations for nearly all of the past 15 years, which is partly why some of those effects are more jarring than others to me. Again, thanks for your input!

rswail 6y ago

Not to start a flamewar, but as a 35 year veteran, the permissions dialog is the same as what SELinux would give you. Apple are implementing an RBAC and require authentication and authorization on a per-app basis. This is on top of their SEP and read only System volumes with secure boot. Leave aside the argument about system openness to modification, that is beyond Unix's security and permissions model. Sure, Unix offers some of that with chmod and mount options, but it's hardly a comprehensive solution.

quinndiggity 6y ago
Great input; not flame war enticing, just facts, and I respect your 20 year head start - implicit memory is only attainable by experiencing things first hand, and I appreciate that. Perhaps not the greatest example was provided, but the general sentiment I was aiming for was when disdain is expressed for tools without taking the time to understand what their intended (and practical) purposes are, and how they are effectively used. When you have used a tool and understand it well, and witness another person go off on a tangent about how "Android is complete garbage, why would they ever do this this way", you naturally question that person's capability or whether they know what they are doing. In my experience, the person venting about how a tool sucks will 15-20 minutes later realize "oh. that's why.", or otherwise head off to roll their own implementation and 15 working days later realize "oh. that's why." or get into production and cause an outage from missing several edge cases. On the macOS topic, it is odd that the root user no longer functions as one would expect in the Unix model (for example, cli tools which can no longer list OS processes, which haven't had any issues during the amount of time I've used them). It is frustrating that a wide variety of tools no longer work correctly as a result of some of these changes as well; for example, emacs can no longer navigate my filesystem. All said and done, my day to day work has been via Linux workstations for nearly all of the past 15 years, which is partly why some of those effects are more jarring than others to me. Again, thanks for your input!