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He's talking about single combat. I don't think that's relevant to battlefield. I expect stick would have the problem of not killing. A sword can easily stab s

He's talking about single combat. I don't think that's relevant to battlefield. I expect stick would have the problem of not killing. A sword can easily stab someone dead or maim and any hit is (significant) bleeding. A hammer could bludgeon someone dead in a hit. But a staff? I don't know about that. Yes you can hit somebody in a duel from afar and keep your distance, yet you hit them 5 times and they keep coming at you.

Raphmedia 6y ago
I believe that you are downplaying the effect of being hit across the head with a staff. It is no different than a hammer in the sense that you can break someone's limbs and kill them with a blow to the head. Combat staffs were not non-lethal. Take for example the Bo that can easily break bones and can bend even a Katana with a proper strike. Even pool cues will kill when used in bar fights.
giardini 6y ago
user5994461 says "He's talking about single combat. I don't think that's relevant to battlefield." In "Paradoxes of Defense" Silver talks about both: a) He believes that dueling traditions adopted from other cultures are wasteful of English life and limb and provide little or no training for use on the battlefield. It was important that each well-bodied Englishman be able to serve his country in a war. Once war was declared, there was scant time for training with new weapons and the dueling skills were not very useful. b) He discusses most weapons and considers their use in one-on-one, one-on-two and battle situations. user5994461 says "I expect stick would have the problem of not killing." Many have been killed/wounded by a "stick"(AKA rolling pin, tire tool, baseball bat, 2x4, flashlight, etc.). But "sticks" per se vary from a short stick, e.g., police baton, to a short staff, e.g., 1-2 inch diameter by ~1 meter length, to a longer staff (maybe ~3 meters and longer). Sizes differ for different cultures. Some "sticks" have lead/iron weights in them. Some are wrapped with metal. A larger weapon is usually capable of dealing harder blows. "Sticks" kill by breaking heads and bones (ribs, shins, arms and legs, the neck, eyes, throat), etc. Usually they disable immediately (hard to fight with a broken leg or if your larynx has been crushed). It would be foolish to fight with a broken arm or missing eye if one could simply play dead. user5994461 says "...yet you hit them 5 times and they keep coming at you." You need a bigger stick or some exercise. Oh, and don't mess with those Orcs!8-)) Silver(author of Paradoxes of Defense) was likely more familiar with this than you or I. I don't doubt his experience. An English nursery rhyme: Sticks and stones may break my bones But words shall never hurt me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticks_and_Stones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticks_and_Stones
- user5994461 6y ago
  I was more thinking of a stick like a spear without a tip. Not a bat or a short police baton. One challenge with all these examples is that they are used because they are handy not because they are efficient. The police baton is perfect example of something used to NOT kill (manifestations would be terribly bloody if the police was responding with swords or daggers), it's better than nothing but you don't want to go to battle with that. If we're talking medieval fighting the other party has significant padding if not a gambeson, and they're not waiting idle to get your best hit. If training with wood weapons is any indication, the one with a stick variant loose everytime, they can hit but they get closed upon anyway and stabbed/slashed. If you make the (long) stick a spear, a tip that can cut and stab, it's a great weapon. You'd certainly want to have a spear not just a long stick.
  - giardini 6y ago
    user5994461 says"If training with wood weapons is any indication, the one with a stick variant loose everytime, they can hit but they get closed upon anyway and stabbed/slashed." A wood mock up of a sword would, of course, not be as useful against an iron sword (especially if deployed in a sword-like manner) as would a 6-foot staff of hickory. What kind of "wood weapon" are you speaking of? Are you speaking in the context of some "dojo" or some style of martial art? One problem with dojo drills is that the opponent must "hold back" due to possibility of injury. Also, in a dojo, only one style (e.g., use of the rapier) is usually being taught: not unsurprisingly all other styles somehow fail to measure up. There are many reasons for this: unskilled users, absence of in-house expert ("sensei", "master", etc.) in the opposing style, the power of suggestion. Don't confuse choreographed drills in a dojo with a real fight/battle. Some dojos sell the belief that their weapon of choice (longsword, rapier, long staff, Klingon Bat'Leth, short staff, firearm, knife, bare hands, etc.) is the "one and true" weapon that will protect you against all comers. But they'can't all be dominant in all situations and that is part of what Silvers' "Paradoxes of Defense" says. In a real fight the pole cracks skulls, breaks legs and arms and is thrust into mouths, noses, eyes and necks before an opponent's blade can reach the poler. A "stick", as you call it, can be as long but is likely quicker than the sword, cannot be easily damaged by the sword and as Silvers summarizes, is superior in battle. Pictures of men wearing gambesons show exposed faces and limbs. The gambeson likely lowers mobility (and might be uncomfortably warm). It resembles a bulletproof vest, most which spend their time in the closet. And, as you may know, a man with a knife can make short work of a man in or out of a bulletproof vest (there are gaps).

Raphmedia 6y ago

I believe that you are downplaying the effect of being hit across the head with a staff. It is no different than a hammer in the sense that you can break someone's limbs and kill them with a blow to the head. Combat staffs were not non-lethal. Take for example the Bo that can easily break bones and can bend even a Katana with a proper strike. Even pool cues will kill when used in bar fights.

giardini 6y ago

user5994461 says "He's talking about single combat. I don't think that's relevant to battlefield." In "Paradoxes of Defense" Silver talks about both: a) He believes that dueling traditions adopted from other cultures are wasteful of English life and limb and provide little or no training for use on the battlefield. It was important that each well-bodied Englishman be able to serve his country in a war. Once war was declared, there was scant time for training with new weapons and the dueling skills were not very useful. b) He discusses most weapons and considers their use in one-on-one, one-on-two and battle situations. user5994461 says "I expect stick would have the problem of not killing." Many have been killed/wounded by a "stick"(AKA rolling pin, tire tool, baseball bat, 2x4, flashlight, etc.). But "sticks" per se vary from a short stick, e.g., police baton, to a short staff, e.g., 1-2 inch diameter by ~1 meter length, to a longer staff (maybe ~3 meters and longer). Sizes differ for different cultures. Some "sticks" have lead/iron weights in them. Some are wrapped with metal. A larger weapon is usually capable of dealing harder blows. "Sticks" kill by breaking heads and bones (ribs, shins, arms and legs, the neck, eyes, throat), etc. Usually they disable immediately (hard to fight with a broken leg or if your larynx has been crushed). It would be foolish to fight with a broken arm or missing eye if one could simply play dead. user5994461 says "...yet you hit them 5 times and they keep coming at you." You need a bigger stick or some exercise. Oh, and don't mess with those Orcs!8-)) Silver(author of Paradoxes of Defense) was likely more familiar with this than you or I. I don't doubt his experience. An English nursery rhyme: Sticks and stones may break my bones But words shall never hurt me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticks_and_Stones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticks_and_Stones

user5994461 6y ago
I was more thinking of a stick like a spear without a tip. Not a bat or a short police baton. One challenge with all these examples is that they are used because they are handy not because they are efficient. The police baton is perfect example of something used to NOT kill (manifestations would be terribly bloody if the police was responding with swords or daggers), it's better than nothing but you don't want to go to battle with that. If we're talking medieval fighting the other party has significant padding if not a gambeson, and they're not waiting idle to get your best hit. If training with wood weapons is any indication, the one with a stick variant loose everytime, they can hit but they get closed upon anyway and stabbed/slashed. If you make the (long) stick a spear, a tip that can cut and stab, it's a great weapon. You'd certainly want to have a spear not just a long stick.
- giardini 6y ago
  user5994461 says"If training with wood weapons is any indication, the one with a stick variant loose everytime, they can hit but they get closed upon anyway and stabbed/slashed." A wood mock up of a sword would, of course, not be as useful against an iron sword (especially if deployed in a sword-like manner) as would a 6-foot staff of hickory. What kind of "wood weapon" are you speaking of? Are you speaking in the context of some "dojo" or some style of martial art? One problem with dojo drills is that the opponent must "hold back" due to possibility of injury. Also, in a dojo, only one style (e.g., use of the rapier) is usually being taught: not unsurprisingly all other styles somehow fail to measure up. There are many reasons for this: unskilled users, absence of in-house expert ("sensei", "master", etc.) in the opposing style, the power of suggestion. Don't confuse choreographed drills in a dojo with a real fight/battle. Some dojos sell the belief that their weapon of choice (longsword, rapier, long staff, Klingon Bat'Leth, short staff, firearm, knife, bare hands, etc.) is the "one and true" weapon that will protect you against all comers. But they'can't all be dominant in all situations and that is part of what Silvers' "Paradoxes of Defense" says. In a real fight the pole cracks skulls, breaks legs and arms and is thrust into mouths, noses, eyes and necks before an opponent's blade can reach the poler. A "stick", as you call it, can be as long but is likely quicker than the sword, cannot be easily damaged by the sword and as Silvers summarizes, is superior in battle. Pictures of men wearing gambesons show exposed faces and limbs. The gambeson likely lowers mobility (and might be uncomfortably warm). It resembles a bulletproof vest, most which spend their time in the closet. And, as you may know, a man with a knife can make short work of a man in or out of a bulletproof vest (there are gaps).