4 ms·

This sounds like the opposite of what you meant to say. When you are forging the document and claiming the document is from the FBI, you are fully t acting as a

This sounds like the opposite of what you meant to say. When you are forging the document and claiming the document is from the FBI, you are fully t acting as an FBI agent.

acoard 6y ago
>When you are forging the document and claiming the document is from the FBI, you are fully t acting as an FBI agent That's sophistry and confuses the issue. One is absolutely not acting as an FBI agent when forging FBI documents. There is a clear and common-sense difference between impersonation and forgery, and you seem to be misusing language to willfully misunderstand the difference. When you're forging the document, you are not pretending to be an FBI agent. You are being a forger. The forger then claims that the FBI made the document. Saying, "The FBI made these documents and here they are" is fundamentally different than saying, "I made these documents and am with the FBI." They do not collapse into the same thing. To be honest, I still would hope forging FBI documents is a crime in the same way that impersonating an FBI agent is a crime; however that's a matter of law. It is a matter of fact that forgery and impersonation are different. One is falsifying documents, the other is falsifying identity. If you want to say that both can be reduced to falsification or deception, sure, but that's not a crime. Forgery (falsifying documents) and impersonation (falsifying identity) are crimes, and separate ones.
thaumasiotes 6y ago
All I can do is repeat my original comment. If you think I said the opposite of what I meant, the problem is with you.
Natsu 6y ago
Why would you assume that everyone with an FBI document is an FBI agent? Especially given that any random person could get docs from the FBI Vault, FOIA, etc.?
- andrewprock 6y ago
  Maybe it's presumptuous of me to think it is the FBI that is hiring, vetting, and managing the people who produce it's documents?
  - Natsu 6y ago
    Given the number of contractors and some of the abuse caused by them, I would say that yes, it is presumptuous.
    - andrewprock 6y ago
      If the FBI isn't vetting, hiring, and managing their contractors, then who is?
- hunter2_ 6y ago
  Not "everyone with an FBI document" but "everyone creating an FBI document" because forgery means creating, not possessing. I think it's fair to say that someone creating a document with FBI letterhead/signatures/etc. is pretending to be an FBI agent.
  - Natsu 6y ago
    Do you really expect them to go around claiming to have forged the document or putting their own name on it? And if they don't, nobody knows this, so nobody has cause to think that they are an agent. They can't really impersonate an FBI agent to themselves because they know that's not true. Thus, if nobody thinks they're an FBI agent, how can they have impersonated one?

This sounds like the opposite of what you meant to say. When you are forging the document and claiming the document is from the FBI, you are fully t acting as an FBI agent.

acoard 6y ago

>When you are forging the document and claiming the document is from the FBI, you are fully t acting as an FBI agent That's sophistry and confuses the issue. One is absolutely not acting as an FBI agent when forging FBI documents. There is a clear and common-sense difference between impersonation and forgery, and you seem to be misusing language to willfully misunderstand the difference. When you're forging the document, you are not pretending to be an FBI agent. You are being a forger. The forger then claims that the FBI made the document. Saying, "The FBI made these documents and here they are" is fundamentally different than saying, "I made these documents and am with the FBI." They do not collapse into the same thing. To be honest, I still would hope forging FBI documents is a crime in the same way that impersonating an FBI agent is a crime; however that's a matter of law. It is a matter of fact that forgery and impersonation are different. One is falsifying documents, the other is falsifying identity. If you want to say that both can be reduced to falsification or deception, sure, but that's not a crime. Forgery (falsifying documents) and impersonation (falsifying identity) are crimes, and separate ones.

thaumasiotes 6y ago

All I can do is repeat my original comment. If you think I said the opposite of what I meant, the problem is with you.

Natsu 6y ago

Why would you assume that everyone with an FBI document is an FBI agent? Especially given that any random person could get docs from the FBI Vault, FOIA, etc.?

andrewprock 6y ago
Maybe it's presumptuous of me to think it is the FBI that is hiring, vetting, and managing the people who produce it's documents?
- Natsu 6y ago
  Given the number of contractors and some of the abuse caused by them, I would say that yes, it is presumptuous.
  - andrewprock 6y ago
    If the FBI isn't vetting, hiring, and managing their contractors, then who is?
hunter2_ 6y ago
Not "everyone with an FBI document" but "everyone creating an FBI document" because forgery means creating, not possessing. I think it's fair to say that someone creating a document with FBI letterhead/signatures/etc. is pretending to be an FBI agent.
- Natsu 6y ago
  Do you really expect them to go around claiming to have forged the document or putting their own name on it? And if they don't, nobody knows this, so nobody has cause to think that they are an agent. They can't really impersonate an FBI agent to themselves because they know that's not true. Thus, if nobody thinks they're an FBI agent, how can they have impersonated one?