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I approach these articles from a point of skepticism (but still open minded). It seems to me to any venture mankind takes on has to fit into this narrative of

I approach these articles from a point of skepticism (but still open minded). It seems to me to any venture mankind takes on has to fit into this narrative of man sinning against nature. It’s kind of like original sin for non religious folks. Kessler syndrome is the example of this for space. It’s hard to find arguments against man expanding into space but oh wait you could pollute low earth orbit so better stay on earth. When you start looking for it you’ll see it everywhere.

panzagl 6y ago
It's a popular narrative amongst the 'intellectual' class in the US, which traces its roots back to the initial wave of Puritanism in New England. It's easy to trace the path from Mather to Emerson/Thoreau to Silent Spring. This is also why American Liberalism is different from anything a European would call Liberalism- hard to get too worked up about the plight of the proletariat when deep down you secretly believe the dirty sinners must deserve it.
carapace 6y ago
But we have been "sinning" against nature, eh? I mean, the record of human history is the record of the destruction of the bounty of nature. In the USA we had herds of bison that took days to pass by, clouds of birds that blocked out the sun, rivers so thick with fish you could walk across them, trees so huge they break the mind, and all of it was destroyed with hardly a thought. We took the Great Plains and made the Dust Bowl. Today our industrial agriculture creates dead zones in the oceans, our energy system is toxic, oil spills regularly destroy life over vast areas, we are fishing the oceans to death, and about to start mining the sea floors, our topsoil is blowing and washing away, I could go on and on.
- mrfusion 6y ago
  That’s my point though. That narrative is already in your head because it’s the prevailing belief system. Any criticism of humanity fits neatly into it. Here are a few things we’ve done really well on IMO that don’t fit with the narrative: All the nations got together and fixed the ozone layer. We created the national park system and NWR’s with surprisingly large tracts of land. Whaling is banned in the USA and many other countries AFAIK. No more orca shows at sea world after black fish and it seems like we’re moving in the right direction with captive whales and dolphins? Acid rain is way better. (That was a huge deal in the 80s) We’re getting close to completely getting off coal as a power source (in the US) A large portion of new power capacity is renewable. Recycling looks like it doesn’t actually work well but it’s amazing that almost every household does it in an effort to help.
  - carapace 6y ago
    > That narrative is already in your head because it’s the prevailing belief system. My point is it's not a belief system, it's history. Those things I mentioned really happened and continue to happen, eh? E.g. the Aral Sea really did vanish: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_sea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_sea Most of your examples serve my point better than yours, it seems to me: > fixed the ozone layer We literally poisoned the sky. > Whaling is banned After we nearly hunted them to extinction. > black fish We imprisoned and tortured some whales for entertainment. We do that less now. > Acid rain We poisoned the sky another way. > coal We poisoned the sky a third way. We do that less now. > A large portion of new power capacity is renewable. Yes, but a generation or two too late to prevent global warming due to a couple of additional ways we poisoned the sky. > national park system and NWR Okay, I'll give you that one. We're not actually orcs, we just act like it when we're not paying attention. (In re: space, I'm pro-spaceflight, so I won't mention how much poison each rocket launch dumps into the sky.) - - - - If you want to point to an example of humans improving an area we could talk about the Loess Plateau which was destroyed and then revived: > The plateau was highly fertile and easy to farm in ancient times, which contributed to the development of early Chinese civilization around the Loess Plateau, but centuries of overgrazing, subsistence farming, deforestation for fuel wood gathering and cultivation of crops on slopes, exacerbated by China's population increase, have resulted in degenerated ecosystems, desertification, and poor local economies. > To reverse this trend, the Loess Plateau Watershed Rehabilitation Project was launched in 1994 to rehabilitate the land and improve the people's livelihoods. The project guided the people living on the plateau to change animal husbandry practices; encouraged natural regeneration of grasslands, tree and shrub cover on slope-lands previously used for farming; and land restoration through terracing and replanting. These efforts allowed the perennial vegetation cover to increase from 17 to 34 percent, and "[e]ven in the lifetime of the project, the ecological balance was restored in a vast area considered by many to be beyond help"; in addition, more than 2.5 million people were lifted out of poverty by doubled incomes. > Restoration has occurred over an area of about 35,000 square kilometers (about 5% of the plateau's total area). ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loess_Plateau#Agriculture_and_environment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loess_Plateau#Agriculture_and_... > it’s amazing that almost every household does it in an effort to help. I agree, FWIW, my personal narrative is that humans are nature-accelerators and not intrinsically evil (no "original sin" in other words), we just haven't been paying attention.

panzagl 6y ago

It's a popular narrative amongst the 'intellectual' class in the US, which traces its roots back to the initial wave of Puritanism in New England. It's easy to trace the path from Mather to Emerson/Thoreau to Silent Spring. This is also why American Liberalism is different from anything a European would call Liberalism- hard to get too worked up about the plight of the proletariat when deep down you secretly believe the dirty sinners must deserve it.

carapace 6y ago

But we have been "sinning" against nature, eh? I mean, the record of human history is the record of the destruction of the bounty of nature. In the USA we had herds of bison that took days to pass by, clouds of birds that blocked out the sun, rivers so thick with fish you could walk across them, trees so huge they break the mind, and all of it was destroyed with hardly a thought. We took the Great Plains and made the Dust Bowl. Today our industrial agriculture creates dead zones in the oceans, our energy system is toxic, oil spills regularly destroy life over vast areas, we are fishing the oceans to death, and about to start mining the sea floors, our topsoil is blowing and washing away, I could go on and on.

mrfusion 6y ago
That’s my point though. That narrative is already in your head because it’s the prevailing belief system. Any criticism of humanity fits neatly into it. Here are a few things we’ve done really well on IMO that don’t fit with the narrative: All the nations got together and fixed the ozone layer. We created the national park system and NWR’s with surprisingly large tracts of land. Whaling is banned in the USA and many other countries AFAIK. No more orca shows at sea world after black fish and it seems like we’re moving in the right direction with captive whales and dolphins? Acid rain is way better. (That was a huge deal in the 80s) We’re getting close to completely getting off coal as a power source (in the US) A large portion of new power capacity is renewable. Recycling looks like it doesn’t actually work well but it’s amazing that almost every household does it in an effort to help.
- carapace 6y ago
  > That narrative is already in your head because it’s the prevailing belief system. My point is it's not a belief system, it's history. Those things I mentioned really happened and continue to happen, eh? E.g. the Aral Sea really did vanish: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_sea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_sea Most of your examples serve my point better than yours, it seems to me: > fixed the ozone layer We literally poisoned the sky. > Whaling is banned After we nearly hunted them to extinction. > black fish We imprisoned and tortured some whales for entertainment. We do that less now. > Acid rain We poisoned the sky another way. > coal We poisoned the sky a third way. We do that less now. > A large portion of new power capacity is renewable. Yes, but a generation or two too late to prevent global warming due to a couple of additional ways we poisoned the sky. > national park system and NWR Okay, I'll give you that one. We're not actually orcs, we just act like it when we're not paying attention. (In re: space, I'm pro-spaceflight, so I won't mention how much poison each rocket launch dumps into the sky.) - - - - If you want to point to an example of humans improving an area we could talk about the Loess Plateau which was destroyed and then revived: > The plateau was highly fertile and easy to farm in ancient times, which contributed to the development of early Chinese civilization around the Loess Plateau, but centuries of overgrazing, subsistence farming, deforestation for fuel wood gathering and cultivation of crops on slopes, exacerbated by China's population increase, have resulted in degenerated ecosystems, desertification, and poor local economies. > To reverse this trend, the Loess Plateau Watershed Rehabilitation Project was launched in 1994 to rehabilitate the land and improve the people's livelihoods. The project guided the people living on the plateau to change animal husbandry practices; encouraged natural regeneration of grasslands, tree and shrub cover on slope-lands previously used for farming; and land restoration through terracing and replanting. These efforts allowed the perennial vegetation cover to increase from 17 to 34 percent, and "[e]ven in the lifetime of the project, the ecological balance was restored in a vast area considered by many to be beyond help"; in addition, more than 2.5 million people were lifted out of poverty by doubled incomes. > Restoration has occurred over an area of about 35,000 square kilometers (about 5% of the plateau's total area). ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loess_Plateau#Agriculture_and_environment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loess_Plateau#Agriculture_and_... > it’s amazing that almost every household does it in an effort to help. I agree, FWIW, my personal narrative is that humans are nature-accelerators and not intrinsically evil (no "original sin" in other words), we just haven't been paying attention.