5 ms·

Att the start of the pandemic Sweden had the next-lowest number of ICU places per capita in Europe (Portugal had the lowest). The capacity was doubled, field ho

Att the start of the pandemic Sweden had the next-lowest number of ICU places per capita in Europe (Portugal had the lowest). The capacity was doubled, field hospitals were built... and not used since the hospitals could handle the inflow. This was partly due to some very controversial and in my opinion unethical guidelines which mandated morphing instead of oxygen for certain groups of elderly (i.e. involuntary euthanasia) but it is unknown if those policies had much effect on the park ICU occupation. Apart from some bad mistakes in the beginning where the infection was allowed to spread in care facilities Sweden has weathered the epidemic (as in the local version of the pandemic) no worse than surrounding countries and certainly no worse than e.g. New York.

cygx 6y ago
no worse than surrounding countries Deaths per 1k population: total last month Sweden 0.59 0.0058 Denmark 0.11 0.0053 Finland 0.063 0.0016 Norway 0.051 0.0020
- goalieca 6y ago
  I’m tired of seeing scoreboard style comparisons everywhere as some sort of gotcha. Any scientific analysis worth its salt will look into the values to start explaining the numbers and put it all into context. For instance, can we explain where Sweden’s deaths occurred? Large care homes (100+ residents) that were ill prepared? Are they expected to have a large amount or average amount of excess deaths at the end of 2020? Why is it tracking average and why are some lockdown heavy countries tracking much higher (because lack of health care due to shutdowns?) What even represents a covid death or case?
  - Yetanfou 6y ago
    > For instance, can we explain where Sweden’s deaths occurred? Large care homes (100+ residents) that were ill prepared? A large problem in Sweden is that many of the staff in care homes do not speak Swedish or don't speak/read it well. This has led to the instructions on how and when to use PPE not being followed or not being followed well which led to a large number of infections in care homes [1]. Since people in care homes tend to be part of high-risk groups for severe COVID-19 this had led to a large number of deaths which could have been prevented. I stated this in the original message ('Apart from some bad mistakes in the beginning where the infection was allowed to spread in care facilities'). [1] https://www.sydsvenskan.se/2020-07-10/svag-svenska-kan-ha-paverkat-covidvard https://www.sydsvenskan.se/2020-07-10/svag-svenska-kan-ha-pa...
  - onecommentman 6y ago
    What makes presenting a list of numbers a “gotcha”? It’s a better starting point for discussion than a random unsupported assertion. I would interpret a complaint about introducing numbers and measurement as evidence that the complainant has a weak position that can’t stand objective scrutiny. Numbers aren’t everything, but they’re definitely a something...
gerikson 6y ago
> This was partly due to some very controversial and in my opinion unethical guidelines which mandated morphing instead of oxygen for certain groups of elderly (i.e. involuntary euthanasia) This is an extremely serious accusation. I live in Sweden and have not seen any reference to this practice mentioned in media.
- juusto 6y ago
  I saw something related to it in two outlets, the BBC and YLE (finnish news). https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52704836 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52704836 https://www.wsj.com/articles/coronavirus-is-taking-a-high-toll-on-swedens-elderly-families-blame-the-government-11592479430 https://www.wsj.com/articles/coronavirus-is-taking-a-high-to... https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-11433976 https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-11433976
  - gerikson 6y ago
    The intent was to give palliative care, not literally murder people . Although this source does sound the alarm that the line is thin. In essence, palliative care for cancer does not translate into the same effect with COVID-19. https://www.dagensmedicin.se/artiklar/2020/06/15/palliativ-vard-vid-covid-19-kan-glida-over-till-nagot-som-liknar-dodshjalp/ https://www.dagensmedicin.se/artiklar/2020/06/15/palliativ-v...
- Yetanfou 6y ago
  Seriously? http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/kolumnister/a/dO3ddB/en-pagaende-massaker-pa-aldre-manniskor http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/kolumnister/a/dO3ddB/en-pa... http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/GGk664/de-nast-intill-avlivar-de-gamla http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/GGk664/de-nast-intill-av... http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/4q9V1g/kritiken-mot-aldrevarden-de-aldre-medicineras-till-dods http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/4q9V1g/kritiken-mot-aldr... https://www.dagensmedicin.se/artiklar/2020/06/15/palliativ-vard-vid-covid-19-kan-glida-over-till-nagot-som-liknar-dodshjalp/ https://www.dagensmedicin.se/artiklar/2020/06/15/palliativ-v... https://www.expressen.se/debatt/min-pappas-dod-i-covid-19-blev-onodigt-plagsam/ https://www.expressen.se/debatt/min-pappas-dod-i-covid-19-bl... https://www.aftonbladet.se/ledare/a/Ln0r9Q/morfin-istallet-for-vard-ar-ovardigt https://www.aftonbladet.se/ledare/a/Ln0r9Q/morfin-istallet-f... https://www.exakt24.se/lakare-upprord-efter-lackt-journalanteckning-rena-avlivningsstationer/ https://www.exakt24.se/lakare-upprord-efter-lackt-journalant... https://www.exakt24.se/lakare-forskrackt-dodshjalp-istallet-for-behandling-av-aldre-coronasjuka/ https://www.exakt24.se/lakare-forskrackt-dodshjalp-istallet-... https://lakartidningen.se/aktuellt/nyheter/2020/05/geriatrikprofessor-manga-aldre-dor-i-onodan-utan-korrekt-bedomning/ https://lakartidningen.se/aktuellt/nyheter/2020/05/geriatrik... https://www.varldenidag.se/nyheter/lakare-kraver-syrgas-till-aldre-tusentals-kan-raddas/reptef!RiOMC34kix73L7Xe5TSgYQ/ https://www.varldenidag.se/nyheter/lakare-kraver-syrgas-till... https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-lagar/dokument/skriftlig-fraga/morfin-i-stallet-for-syrgas_H7111257 https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-lagar/dokument/skriftli... If you have not heard of this it is because you're following the wrong media, clear and simple. Even Aftonbladet published on this, there was an open letter in Läkartidningen (doctor's journal), Dagens Medicin wrote on it, the 'alternative' media were all over this, questions were asked in Riksdagen. Why did you not know? Also, why did you not simply search around a bit to verify the statement before posting your reply?

cygx 6y ago

no worse than surrounding countries Deaths per 1k population: total last month Sweden 0.59 0.0058 Denmark 0.11 0.0053 Finland 0.063 0.0016 Norway 0.051 0.0020

goalieca 6y ago
I’m tired of seeing scoreboard style comparisons everywhere as some sort of gotcha. Any scientific analysis worth its salt will look into the values to start explaining the numbers and put it all into context. For instance, can we explain where Sweden’s deaths occurred? Large care homes (100+ residents) that were ill prepared? Are they expected to have a large amount or average amount of excess deaths at the end of 2020? Why is it tracking average and why are some lockdown heavy countries tracking much higher (because lack of health care due to shutdowns?) What even represents a covid death or case?
- Yetanfou 6y ago
  > For instance, can we explain where Sweden’s deaths occurred? Large care homes (100+ residents) that were ill prepared? A large problem in Sweden is that many of the staff in care homes do not speak Swedish or don't speak/read it well. This has led to the instructions on how and when to use PPE not being followed or not being followed well which led to a large number of infections in care homes [1]. Since people in care homes tend to be part of high-risk groups for severe COVID-19 this had led to a large number of deaths which could have been prevented. I stated this in the original message ('Apart from some bad mistakes in the beginning where the infection was allowed to spread in care facilities'). [1] https://www.sydsvenskan.se/2020-07-10/svag-svenska-kan-ha-paverkat-covidvard https://www.sydsvenskan.se/2020-07-10/svag-svenska-kan-ha-pa...
- onecommentman 6y ago
  What makes presenting a list of numbers a “gotcha”? It’s a better starting point for discussion than a random unsupported assertion. I would interpret a complaint about introducing numbers and measurement as evidence that the complainant has a weak position that can’t stand objective scrutiny. Numbers aren’t everything, but they’re definitely a something...

gerikson 6y ago

> This was partly due to some very controversial and in my opinion unethical guidelines which mandated morphing instead of oxygen for certain groups of elderly (i.e. involuntary euthanasia) This is an extremely serious accusation. I live in Sweden and have not seen any reference to this practice mentioned in media.

juusto 6y ago
I saw something related to it in two outlets, the BBC and YLE (finnish news). https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52704836 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52704836 https://www.wsj.com/articles/coronavirus-is-taking-a-high-toll-on-swedens-elderly-families-blame-the-government-11592479430 https://www.wsj.com/articles/coronavirus-is-taking-a-high-to... https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-11433976 https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-11433976
- gerikson 6y ago
  The intent was to give palliative care, not literally murder people . Although this source does sound the alarm that the line is thin. In essence, palliative care for cancer does not translate into the same effect with COVID-19. https://www.dagensmedicin.se/artiklar/2020/06/15/palliativ-vard-vid-covid-19-kan-glida-over-till-nagot-som-liknar-dodshjalp/ https://www.dagensmedicin.se/artiklar/2020/06/15/palliativ-v...
Yetanfou 6y ago
Seriously? http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/kolumnister/a/dO3ddB/en-pagaende-massaker-pa-aldre-manniskor http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/kolumnister/a/dO3ddB/en-pa... http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/GGk664/de-nast-intill-avlivar-de-gamla http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/GGk664/de-nast-intill-av... http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/4q9V1g/kritiken-mot-aldrevarden-de-aldre-medicineras-till-dods http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/4q9V1g/kritiken-mot-aldr... https://www.dagensmedicin.se/artiklar/2020/06/15/palliativ-vard-vid-covid-19-kan-glida-over-till-nagot-som-liknar-dodshjalp/ https://www.dagensmedicin.se/artiklar/2020/06/15/palliativ-v... https://www.expressen.se/debatt/min-pappas-dod-i-covid-19-blev-onodigt-plagsam/ https://www.expressen.se/debatt/min-pappas-dod-i-covid-19-bl... https://www.aftonbladet.se/ledare/a/Ln0r9Q/morfin-istallet-for-vard-ar-ovardigt https://www.aftonbladet.se/ledare/a/Ln0r9Q/morfin-istallet-f... https://www.exakt24.se/lakare-upprord-efter-lackt-journalanteckning-rena-avlivningsstationer/ https://www.exakt24.se/lakare-upprord-efter-lackt-journalant... https://www.exakt24.se/lakare-forskrackt-dodshjalp-istallet-for-behandling-av-aldre-coronasjuka/ https://www.exakt24.se/lakare-forskrackt-dodshjalp-istallet-... https://lakartidningen.se/aktuellt/nyheter/2020/05/geriatrikprofessor-manga-aldre-dor-i-onodan-utan-korrekt-bedomning/ https://lakartidningen.se/aktuellt/nyheter/2020/05/geriatrik... https://www.varldenidag.se/nyheter/lakare-kraver-syrgas-till-aldre-tusentals-kan-raddas/reptef!RiOMC34kix73L7Xe5TSgYQ/ https://www.varldenidag.se/nyheter/lakare-kraver-syrgas-till... https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-lagar/dokument/skriftlig-fraga/morfin-i-stallet-for-syrgas_H7111257 https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-lagar/dokument/skriftli... If you have not heard of this it is because you're following the wrong media, clear and simple. Even Aftonbladet published on this, there was an open letter in Läkartidningen (doctor's journal), Dagens Medicin wrote on it, the 'alternative' media were all over this, questions were asked in Riksdagen. Why did you not know? Also, why did you not simply search around a bit to verify the statement before posting your reply?