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Which is absolutely bizarre to me because most of my experience with Python has been with people who are effectively scientists who don't give a rats-ass about

Which is absolutely bizarre to me because most of my experience with Python has been with people who are effectively scientists who don't give a rats-ass about good coding practices and yet I rarely had issues with receiving the wrong type. Don't get me wrong though, I spent the first 10 years of programming with C and Java so I understand the comfort that a statically typed language provides. I just haven't found it to be a big enough issue over the past 7-8 years of programming in Python to really complain about it. Frankly, if you were to ask me what the top 3 sources of my headaches in Python are, number 1, 2, and 3 would be, receiving a None value when I expected something else; but that's an issue with most languages.

boloust 6y ago
> Frankly, if you were to ask me what the top 3 sources of my headaches in Python are, number 1, 2, and 3 would be, receiving a None value when I expected something else Curious example, because that's absolutely something a sufficiently advanced and well-thought-out static type system can completely solve. You're right that the type systems of C and Java do not meet this bar, however.
- rxhernandez 6y ago
  Is null even a type though? If not, then it would seem it's not a static type system that's solving it; it's something else entirely solving it (whether or not that something is contained in that specific type system).
  - boloust 6y ago
    The issue with null, as commonly implemented, is that null is a value that inhabits all types. So in that sense it is a defect of the type system.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - guenthert 6y ago
      In Common Lisp, T is the "any" type (which makes sense there, as type specifiers can be formed using unions using (or type-A type-B ...) lists), the value NIL is the sole instance of the type NULL.
- msla 6y ago
  Receiving a None or Nothing or a NULL or similar is something a type system can paper over or, more politely, force you to add code to ward off but there's something happening in the actual data, if not the real world, which is causing that non-value to be present and the type system can't fix that.
  - ImprobableTruth 6y ago
    But is the issue receiving a null or is it how unexpected the null is? Assuming that functions always can return null is way too tedious, so in practice my issue with dynamic languages like Python is that I'm never sure whether a function can actually return null.

boloust 6y ago

> Frankly, if you were to ask me what the top 3 sources of my headaches in Python are, number 1, 2, and 3 would be, receiving a None value when I expected something else Curious example, because that's absolutely something a sufficiently advanced and well-thought-out static type system can completely solve. You're right that the type systems of C and Java do not meet this bar, however.

rxhernandez 6y ago
Is null even a type though? If not, then it would seem it's not a static type system that's solving it; it's something else entirely solving it (whether or not that something is contained in that specific type system).
- boloust 6y ago
  The issue with null, as commonly implemented, is that null is a value that inhabits all types. So in that sense it is a defect of the type system.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - guenthert 6y ago
    In Common Lisp, T is the "any" type (which makes sense there, as type specifiers can be formed using unions using (or type-A type-B ...) lists), the value NIL is the sole instance of the type NULL.
msla 6y ago
Receiving a None or Nothing or a NULL or similar is something a type system can paper over or, more politely, force you to add code to ward off but there's something happening in the actual data, if not the real world, which is causing that non-value to be present and the type system can't fix that.
- ImprobableTruth 6y ago
  But is the issue receiving a null or is it how unexpected the null is? Assuming that functions always can return null is way too tedious, so in practice my issue with dynamic languages like Python is that I'm never sure whether a function can actually return null.