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Is this really a bias? Or maybe they are less facial features and less contrast, that make detection harder? For example there is only one eye color and hair co

Is this really a bias? Or maybe they are less facial features and less contrast, that make detection harder? For example there is only one eye color and hair color.. And it was fixed with simple appeal. Rant start > I think this just derails discussion about how system is really broken. My friend applied for UK residency around Christmas. She matches all criteria, her husband studied and now works in UK, she is EU resident. Border service holds her passport for 11 months now!!! Only info we can get is automated paid call, for 15 euro they tell us it is in progress... Meanwhile she got pregnant and is about to deliver. All faster before border service can even answer single question... She is about to deliver, 2000 km from her husband, and can not even leave this country, because UK is holding her passport. And yes, she happens to be black as well... ...rant end

tempodox 6y ago
> Is this really a bias? Not making your software function properly for all the legitimate input it has to deal with is a bias. Not working to eliminate that bias because it affects a group you don't happen to be part of could even be called racist.
- collyw 6y ago
  The vast majority of software has bugs especially around edge cases that aren't frequently encountered. Sometimes it isn't even worth fixing somethings as they are expected so infrequently, it's easier to fix things by hand or via some other hack.
  - tempodox 6y ago
    Are you asserting that people with dark skin need photo ID more “infrequently” than others? That it “isn't even worth fixing”? Then that's how the bias in your thinking translates directly into bad and racist software. You are arguing for the developer's convenience. Good software is about providing functionality to users, not developer's convenience.
    - collyw 6y ago
      That's straw-manning my argument, I didn't say any of that. But as you bring it up, so far this case has come up once, so it does seem to be a rare edge case. Perfection is the enemy of good and many bugs get relabelled features (and no I am not doing that in this case, just pointing out that software development always involves trade offs). And stop calling it racist. Racist used to be something pretty bad, now it's being applied to everything.
rich_sasha 6y ago
Hear hear, this is what racism is, not an algorithm that underperforms in certain situations. For any algo, I'm sure you'll find features where it underperforms, and since, well, photos are 90% race-determined, of course there will be racial differences. Bureaucracy doing its best to not deliver what the law says it should is, meanwhile, blatant racism. Just sounds less exciting than a Skynet-style racist operation of white men forcing Asian women to join a different queue at the airport.

tempodox 6y ago

> Is this really a bias? Not making your software function properly for all the legitimate input it has to deal with is a bias. Not working to eliminate that bias because it affects a group you don't happen to be part of could even be called racist.

collyw 6y ago
The vast majority of software has bugs especially around edge cases that aren't frequently encountered. Sometimes it isn't even worth fixing somethings as they are expected so infrequently, it's easier to fix things by hand or via some other hack.
- tempodox 6y ago
  Are you asserting that people with dark skin need photo ID more “infrequently” than others? That it “isn't even worth fixing”? Then that's how the bias in your thinking translates directly into bad and racist software. You are arguing for the developer's convenience. Good software is about providing functionality to users, not developer's convenience.
  - collyw 6y ago
    That's straw-manning my argument, I didn't say any of that. But as you bring it up, so far this case has come up once, so it does seem to be a rare edge case. Perfection is the enemy of good and many bugs get relabelled features (and no I am not doing that in this case, just pointing out that software development always involves trade offs). And stop calling it racist. Racist used to be something pretty bad, now it's being applied to everything.

rich_sasha 6y ago

Hear hear, this is what racism is, not an algorithm that underperforms in certain situations. For any algo, I'm sure you'll find features where it underperforms, and since, well, photos are 90% race-determined, of course there will be racial differences. Bureaucracy doing its best to not deliver what the law says it should is, meanwhile, blatant racism. Just sounds less exciting than a Skynet-style racist operation of white men forcing Asian women to join a different queue at the airport.