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You don't need US style unions to achieve any of those, as history shows. Workers should have the right to form political organizations, yes, but forcing your c

You don't need US style unions to achieve any of those, as history shows. Workers should have the right to form political organizations, yes, but forcing your colleagues to join your political organization doesn't make sense.

heavyset_go 6y ago
Nobody is forcing you to work a union job. You're free to apply and work wherever you want.
- username90 6y ago
  Right, which is why there are basically no unionized software engineering jobs in USA. I'd rather not be forced to change jobs just because you want to join a union. Your love for strict unions means that most people who want a software union isn't allowed to get one since most of their colleagues don't want one.
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    I mean, by definition, if someone's workplace voted to unionize, most of their colleagues would want one, because it takes a majority vote in an NLRB election to unionize a workplace.
    - username90 6y ago
      > with 46 employees voting in favor of the move and 37 opposing it. 37 people voted against unionization of kickstarter, that is 37 people who were forced to join a union against their will. "Nobody is forcing you, except if a majority of your colleagues wants to force you of course..." isn't a good argument. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/technology/kickstarter-union.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/technology/kickstarter-un...
      - heavyset_go 6y ago
        46 vs 37 is most colleagues. Nobody is forcing you to stay at a job where management makes decisions that you don't like, and similarly no one is forcing you to stay at a job where it's your coworkers making decisions you don't like. This is what democracy looks like.
        dantheman 6y ago
        Business isn't a democracy and it shouldn't be one.
        Apocryphon 6y ago
        Why not?
        ivojp 6y ago
        Because most companies are private enterprises started by some entrepreneur that had some vision for the good/service that is being produced. Presumably, you and your employer entered into some contract in which you are compensated for your labor. If you find the terms unconscionable, perhaps you should petition your legislators to change the labor laws (this is where democracy is appropriate). As an aside, I do not understand where the notion that <something> + democracy is always going to be better than <something>. I never would have thought back in college that banding together with my fellow physics majors and demanding what we're taught and how we're graded would produce better outcomes; I choose my school/department because of the reputation resulting from the faculty's decisions. I imagine the same goes with most employees at most companies - a lot of engineers want to work at FAANG because of what <ceo> is doing. Democracy works well for things you can't opt out of, like society. I doubt Apple products would be as good if Steve Jobs let every engineer into the boardroom.
        Apocryphon 6y ago
        Because management isn't always what it's cracked up to be, and it would be a nice recourse for workers to have some leverage to push back against questionable business decisions. Have you ever worked somewhere where mgmt. overruled engineering concerns with disastrous consequences? [0] Perhaps workplace democracy is too radical, perhaps a workers' union won't make the right business decisions that management can- or sometimes they do [1]- but it'd be nice to have some way to voice dissatisfaction with the direction a company is going besides some easily-ignored questions at all-hands. Maybe a channel directly to the board? Well, turns out there used to be something called an ombudsman. [2] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23535292 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23535292 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13986889 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13986889 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22367243 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22367243 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13718336 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13718336

heavyset_go 6y ago

Nobody is forcing you to work a union job. You're free to apply and work wherever you want.

username90 6y ago
Right, which is why there are basically no unionized software engineering jobs in USA. I'd rather not be forced to change jobs just because you want to join a union. Your love for strict unions means that most people who want a software union isn't allowed to get one since most of their colleagues don't want one.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  I mean, by definition, if someone's workplace voted to unionize, most of their colleagues would want one, because it takes a majority vote in an NLRB election to unionize a workplace.
  - username90 6y ago
    > with 46 employees voting in favor of the move and 37 opposing it. 37 people voted against unionization of kickstarter, that is 37 people who were forced to join a union against their will. "Nobody is forcing you, except if a majority of your colleagues wants to force you of course..." isn't a good argument. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/technology/kickstarter-union.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/technology/kickstarter-un...
    - heavyset_go 6y ago
      46 vs 37 is most colleagues. Nobody is forcing you to stay at a job where management makes decisions that you don't like, and similarly no one is forcing you to stay at a job where it's your coworkers making decisions you don't like. This is what democracy looks like.
      - dantheman 6y ago
        Business isn't a democracy and it shouldn't be one.
        Apocryphon 6y ago
        Why not?
        ivojp 6y ago
        Because most companies are private enterprises started by some entrepreneur that had some vision for the good/service that is being produced. Presumably, you and your employer entered into some contract in which you are compensated for your labor. If you find the terms unconscionable, perhaps you should petition your legislators to change the labor laws (this is where democracy is appropriate). As an aside, I do not understand where the notion that <something> + democracy is always going to be better than <something>. I never would have thought back in college that banding together with my fellow physics majors and demanding what we're taught and how we're graded would produce better outcomes; I choose my school/department because of the reputation resulting from the faculty's decisions. I imagine the same goes with most employees at most companies - a lot of engineers want to work at FAANG because of what <ceo> is doing. Democracy works well for things you can't opt out of, like society. I doubt Apple products would be as good if Steve Jobs let every engineer into the boardroom.
        Apocryphon 6y ago
        Because management isn't always what it's cracked up to be, and it would be a nice recourse for workers to have some leverage to push back against questionable business decisions. Have you ever worked somewhere where mgmt. overruled engineering concerns with disastrous consequences? [0] Perhaps workplace democracy is too radical, perhaps a workers' union won't make the right business decisions that management can- or sometimes they do [1]- but it'd be nice to have some way to voice dissatisfaction with the direction a company is going besides some easily-ignored questions at all-hands. Maybe a channel directly to the board? Well, turns out there used to be something called an ombudsman. [2] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23535292 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23535292 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13986889 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13986889 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22367243 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22367243 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13718336 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13718336