6 ms·

Why Nerds Are Unpopular (2003)

62 points by est31 6y ago

jwatte 6y ago
Nerds believe that truth is more important than interpersonal alignment.
- romanoderoma 6y ago
  As COVID-19 shows, it is most of the times Nerds are unpopular, admitting they really are and care about being popular, because they mostly don't believe in luck, faith, higher beings and what common people usually think it's important in life A nerd won't think yoga it's good because yoga is popular on Instagram, a nerd believes exercise is important, regardless of the cool factor People don't like being told "your beliefs are based on fashion" and will rule nerds are as "not interpersonally aligned". Truth is they are usually right Cassandra was a nerd, Trojans believed she was unpleasant and were defeated by a wooden horse Also: being popular sucks, many intelligent people prefer other achievements in life
  - thowaway23413 6y ago
    what are you talking about? Since we are generalizing, being popular is awesome. And, objectively better than not being popular. I guess I'm not intelligent.
    - romanoderoma 6y ago
      I'm talking about a simple fact: being popular is easy, being right is not I'm talking about the fact that being popular in school has nothing to do with objectively having a good life Usually people good in sports are popular in high school because have more confidence, it doesn't mean they'll be happy adults Nerds are not popular because they aren't looking for easy solutions, but to master something It requires sacrifice and trying to be popular is the most useless of the distractions I guess that's another of the cultural differences between US and Europe: the pinnacle of our life is way after school and who was or wasn't popular back then is not important when you reach adulthood
coldelectrons 6y ago
I did not know I needed this, or how much. Thank you.
- thimkerbell 6y ago
  Keep reading. paulgraham.com/hs.html in paulgraham.com/articles.html
sasaf5 6y ago
Another reason why nerd groups are ostracized is envy. In the ocean of boredom that is high school, one group manages to create an island of fantasy and computer programming. While everyone is marred by memorization and popularity contests, one group is having a blast killing imaginary monsters with throws of D20s. That is certainly to be treated with envy.
- krapp 6y ago
  I hate to break it to you, but no one envied the nerds and D&D kids in high school. No one wanted to be one of the deviant outcasts who spent their time in the basement rather than having a normal social life with status and friends and sex. It's only been relatively recently, with the popularity of the web, that many aspects of former "nerd" culture such as anime and D&D (and of course, using a computer to begin with) haven't been viewed with contempt by the mainstream.
  - sasaf5 6y ago
    I know where this frustration comes from, so in one hand I empathize with your rebuttal. In another hand, we did have our own social life and status based on having fun with knowledge (sex though, not so easy). We also exchanged activities with nerd groups of other grades whereas socializing with other grades was anathema for popular people (shame on them). I say envy because there was always one or two popular ones that would circle around us just a bit closer, curious about what could be so fun about those maps and dices and lines of code. A few came close enough to fall in our gravity well. This was all at a time when computers were solely used to type your assignments on.
    - krapp 6y ago
      >I say envy because there was always one or two popular ones that would circle around us just a bit closer, curious about what could be so fun about those maps and dices and lines of code. A few came close enough to fall in our gravity well. Sure, but let's be fair - that was the exception, not the rule. It just means it was possible, albeit not as socially acceptable, for popular people to have nerdy interests. But that doesn't mean they felt envy for nerd' lives and social circles when compared to their own.
Barrin92 6y ago
eh I hate this kind of Ender's game self-victimisation. Nerds aren't unpopular because they're too smart for school and all the athletic jocks envy them, they're unpopular because they act like nerds. That's not a passive thing happening to someone, it's something that people actively act like. Obviously one can be highly intelligent in school and not be nerdy, everyone knows people who are intelligent as well as popular have a healthy social life. Nerds never did well in school because they're often smug as hell, think they're the brainy protagonist of some sort of TV show envied by everyone else, but in reality not even that clever. That's a bad combination. The nerds are no different than the goth kids, or the punks, or anyone else who conjures up an identity in high school to declare themselves the moral centre of the universe. It's unpopular because it's immature.
- lmilcin 6y ago
  Struck a nerve? Not a nerd? Confusion about terms? Most people spend large part of their effort on popularity contest. Nerd is somebody that even if he/she would like to take part in the contest they value other, more intellectual exercises. They end up underdeveloped socially because they don't have as much experience as somebody that spends most of their time partying, socializing or avoiding study or work to be able to party and socialize.
  - Barrin92 6y ago
    > Nerd is somebody that even if he/she would like to take part in the contest they value other, more intellectual exercises No, nerds are the people who lost the general popularity contest and then started one in a parallel universe. Almost nobody is more competitive about status than subcultures internally, almost like a middle-finger towards society at large. This shows in video game competitions, programming language and editor wars, literal startup company competitions. I mean nobody is more vicious in their status fight than the stereotypical nerd-turned-techbro fighting for the attention they didn't get in high school. A lot of famous tech people literally fight like they went into a sort of delayed puberty in their 20s and 30s. This comes through not just in this essay but a lot of Paul Graham stuff, the kind of "you bullied us in high school and now we're rich!" subtext.
playingchanges 6y ago
As someone who self identifies as a nerd, and works exclusively with ‘nerds’ but is actually ‘popular’ irl I think this is an easy one. Nerds are unpopular because they are mostly introverts. Mostly not that fun to be around unless you like having super deep conversations about a specific topic. Most people don’t like doing that. The key to being popular is to meet ‘normal’ people where they are and intentionally engage in non intellectual activities that everyone enjoys. Sports, music, beer, etc.
wrp 6y ago
From my dim memories of high school, the main factors were actually personal hygiene and lack of fashion sense. The problem with these kinds of discussions is that adults tend to attribute adult-like reasoning to teenagers. You just don't remember how shallow you were.
tipsytoad 6y ago
Ok as someone who enjoys doing 'nerdy' things but would count myself as 'popular' etc this article is deluded on the ways popularity and school operate. Noone cares if you enjoy programming or computers as long as you act relatively 'normal'. It's not that nerds care about intelligence more than popularity (trust me most aren't) it's just that the nerds have already lost the popularity race by being socially awkward individuals that can't hold a conversation about any topics other than very specific subjects to save their life. I've found nerds as a teenager to be one of the most judging, toxic group of people who actually care far more about popularity than anyone else at school. (How many other groups made lists of tables by popularity?)
- dropit_sphere 6y ago
  > No one cares if you enjoy programming or computers as long as you act relatively 'normal'. It's not that nerds care about intelligence more than popularity (trust me most aren't) it's just that the nerds have already lost the popularity race by being socially awkward individuals that can't hold a conversation about any topics other than very specific subjects to save their life. This passage makes me think you missed the points of the essay. PG isn't saying "people hate people who enjoy computers and want to shove them into lockers." Rather, he's saying that status competition in middle/high school is a brutal Darwinian struggle, and those who have anything stopping them from optimizing solely for status, will lose the race. Your comment about awkwardness/inability to hold a conversation doesn't strike true either. Rather, I felt like no one else could hold a conversation. Time has born this out; many of my nerd friends have gone on to people/verbal professions, and I'm one of the more gregarious developers you'll meet. I played a lot of sports and so had substantial intercourse with my school's popular crowd---I would not list "conversation" as one of their strengths. Now, one caveat here: The idea that "nerds are just awkward weirdos" isn't entirely without base. I think there are two types of people who get labeled as "weird" --- actually-messed-up people, and also people who are interested in something out-of-context. The trouble with school is that, because your actions don't affect the world, it's impossible to distinguish between the two---like how you couldn't tell Einstein from the Time Cube guy (https://timecube.2enp.com/ https://timecube.2enp.com/) if you couldn't do experiments.
xupybd 6y ago
From what I have heard schooling in Vietnam is the opposite. Good grades make you popular. I think culture has a lot to do with it.
JimTheMan 6y ago
Paul Graham and I haven't been in high school for a loooong time. My suspicion is that things have changed somewhat. That the youth are somewhat more tolerant and mature than they were back in my day. The kids I meet seem way ahead of where I was in high school. Like in the movie 21 jump street, where 2 cops go undecover at a school, jock and unpopular kid. Only the jock learns his ways are no longer 'cool'.
nikhilsimha 6y ago
Since we(comments and PG) are all peddling anecdotes.. IME, the dynamics in Indian schools, are polar opposite to the ones described here. "Nerds" tend to do well in both academics and extracurriculars. And in the majority case can also be referred to simultaneously as "Jocks". The separation between "nerds" and "jocks" into two ends of a (lunch table) spectrum is the biggest culture shock to me. The words that separate "nerds" and "jocks" don't exist in my native language's vocabulary even. For the longest time, I believed that intelligence is a broadly applicable trait, that translates well to rapid spatial reasoning(sports), abstract reasoning(academics) and emotional awareness(social). I haven't seen even a single exception to the rule while going through the Indian school system. While there is some truth to it. IMHO, it has to do with cultural ideals that "adults" adhere to. Academic achievement isn't celebrated culturally in US (relatively speaking). I say that while also simultaneously acknowledging that the current Indian definition of academic achievement is disastrously narrow and breeds a culture of arrogance and intellectual insecurity.
- abdullahkhalids 6y ago
  As a Pakistani, school was not as described in the essay, but there were definitely elements of it. Some people were definitely bad at academics (by choice sometimes), but good at various extracurriculars. There were definitely "jocks" who excelled at sports or music or debates, and were in danger of being kicked out because of grades. Some of the "jocks" had bad social skills, a lot of the "nerds" had excellent social skills. But people were absolutely not excluded from friendships because of what activities they participated in. I saw all sorts of friendships, because people just liked people. There was bullying, but it happened for other reasons.
- muzani 6y ago
  This might be the case in many Asian countries too. Me and my classmates grew up watching American (and Japanese) high school movies, but the stereotypes never stuck. Bullying exists, but the bullies were often the ones who did well in class. Bullies are those who pick on easy prey weaker than them, and those who got isolated into the "dumb classes" were easily bullied. Move up in university and boarding school, and bullying became a lot more extreme, heavily controlled by the ones with good grades. The kids with bad grades tended to have less willpower, come from poorer families, smoked and had less stamina, dressed poorly and couldn't afford tuition. They had a lot of discrimination stacked against them, and were easily oppressed by the "nerds". I would categorize myself as a nerd in that I didn't bother with how I looked or dressed, or that I had bad handwriting. But that attitude lent me a more regal reputation in school; similar to punk or "bad boy" instead.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Jemm 6y ago
The problem with normal is that it involves complicity with social norms which to many of us are horrible.
majinuub 6y ago
I think its pretty cut and clear. Nerds tend to be socially awkward and introverted. The introversion makes them less likely to socialize outside their own groups. When they do socialize, their awkwardness makes interactions difficult.
helen___keller 6y ago
When I went to high school in 2010, nerds were much less defined by having an eccentric hobby like DnD, and much more defined by taking a shitload of AP courses in an attempt to get accepted to a top tier college. And that's not negative: going to an elite university like Harvard is definitively cool. Describing yourself as nerdy or geeky doesn't have a negative connotation. The nerds of the late 20th century are now literally filthy rich, and everyone has a computing device in their pocket, uses the internet 16 hours a day, and was into game of thrones prior to the last season.

62 points by est31 6y ago

jwatte 6y ago

Nerds believe that truth is more important than interpersonal alignment.

romanoderoma 6y ago
As COVID-19 shows, it is most of the times Nerds are unpopular, admitting they really are and care about being popular, because they mostly don't believe in luck, faith, higher beings and what common people usually think it's important in life A nerd won't think yoga it's good because yoga is popular on Instagram, a nerd believes exercise is important, regardless of the cool factor People don't like being told "your beliefs are based on fashion" and will rule nerds are as "not interpersonally aligned". Truth is they are usually right Cassandra was a nerd, Trojans believed she was unpleasant and were defeated by a wooden horse Also: being popular sucks, many intelligent people prefer other achievements in life
- thowaway23413 6y ago
  what are you talking about? Since we are generalizing, being popular is awesome. And, objectively better than not being popular. I guess I'm not intelligent.
  - romanoderoma 6y ago
    I'm talking about a simple fact: being popular is easy, being right is not I'm talking about the fact that being popular in school has nothing to do with objectively having a good life Usually people good in sports are popular in high school because have more confidence, it doesn't mean they'll be happy adults Nerds are not popular because they aren't looking for easy solutions, but to master something It requires sacrifice and trying to be popular is the most useless of the distractions I guess that's another of the cultural differences between US and Europe: the pinnacle of our life is way after school and who was or wasn't popular back then is not important when you reach adulthood

coldelectrons 6y ago

I did not know I needed this, or how much. Thank you.

thimkerbell 6y ago
Keep reading. paulgraham.com/hs.html in paulgraham.com/articles.html

sasaf5 6y ago

Another reason why nerd groups are ostracized is envy. In the ocean of boredom that is high school, one group manages to create an island of fantasy and computer programming. While everyone is marred by memorization and popularity contests, one group is having a blast killing imaginary monsters with throws of D20s. That is certainly to be treated with envy.

krapp 6y ago
I hate to break it to you, but no one envied the nerds and D&D kids in high school. No one wanted to be one of the deviant outcasts who spent their time in the basement rather than having a normal social life with status and friends and sex. It's only been relatively recently, with the popularity of the web, that many aspects of former "nerd" culture such as anime and D&D (and of course, using a computer to begin with) haven't been viewed with contempt by the mainstream.
- sasaf5 6y ago
  I know where this frustration comes from, so in one hand I empathize with your rebuttal. In another hand, we did have our own social life and status based on having fun with knowledge (sex though, not so easy). We also exchanged activities with nerd groups of other grades whereas socializing with other grades was anathema for popular people (shame on them). I say envy because there was always one or two popular ones that would circle around us just a bit closer, curious about what could be so fun about those maps and dices and lines of code. A few came close enough to fall in our gravity well. This was all at a time when computers were solely used to type your assignments on.
  - krapp 6y ago
    >I say envy because there was always one or two popular ones that would circle around us just a bit closer, curious about what could be so fun about those maps and dices and lines of code. A few came close enough to fall in our gravity well. Sure, but let's be fair - that was the exception, not the rule. It just means it was possible, albeit not as socially acceptable, for popular people to have nerdy interests. But that doesn't mean they felt envy for nerd' lives and social circles when compared to their own.

Barrin92 6y ago

eh I hate this kind of Ender's game self-victimisation. Nerds aren't unpopular because they're too smart for school and all the athletic jocks envy them, they're unpopular because they act like nerds. That's not a passive thing happening to someone, it's something that people actively act like. Obviously one can be highly intelligent in school and not be nerdy, everyone knows people who are intelligent as well as popular have a healthy social life. Nerds never did well in school because they're often smug as hell, think they're the brainy protagonist of some sort of TV show envied by everyone else, but in reality not even that clever. That's a bad combination. The nerds are no different than the goth kids, or the punks, or anyone else who conjures up an identity in high school to declare themselves the moral centre of the universe. It's unpopular because it's immature.

lmilcin 6y ago
Struck a nerve? Not a nerd? Confusion about terms? Most people spend large part of their effort on popularity contest. Nerd is somebody that even if he/she would like to take part in the contest they value other, more intellectual exercises. They end up underdeveloped socially because they don't have as much experience as somebody that spends most of their time partying, socializing or avoiding study or work to be able to party and socialize.
- Barrin92 6y ago
  > Nerd is somebody that even if he/she would like to take part in the contest they value other, more intellectual exercises No, nerds are the people who lost the general popularity contest and then started one in a parallel universe. Almost nobody is more competitive about status than subcultures internally, almost like a middle-finger towards society at large. This shows in video game competitions, programming language and editor wars, literal startup company competitions. I mean nobody is more vicious in their status fight than the stereotypical nerd-turned-techbro fighting for the attention they didn't get in high school. A lot of famous tech people literally fight like they went into a sort of delayed puberty in their 20s and 30s. This comes through not just in this essay but a lot of Paul Graham stuff, the kind of "you bullied us in high school and now we're rich!" subtext.

playingchanges 6y ago

As someone who self identifies as a nerd, and works exclusively with ‘nerds’ but is actually ‘popular’ irl I think this is an easy one. Nerds are unpopular because they are mostly introverts. Mostly not that fun to be around unless you like having super deep conversations about a specific topic. Most people don’t like doing that. The key to being popular is to meet ‘normal’ people where they are and intentionally engage in non intellectual activities that everyone enjoys. Sports, music, beer, etc.

wrp 6y ago

From my dim memories of high school, the main factors were actually personal hygiene and lack of fashion sense. The problem with these kinds of discussions is that adults tend to attribute adult-like reasoning to teenagers. You just don't remember how shallow you were.

tipsytoad 6y ago

Ok as someone who enjoys doing 'nerdy' things but would count myself as 'popular' etc this article is deluded on the ways popularity and school operate. Noone cares if you enjoy programming or computers as long as you act relatively 'normal'. It's not that nerds care about intelligence more than popularity (trust me most aren't) it's just that the nerds have already lost the popularity race by being socially awkward individuals that can't hold a conversation about any topics other than very specific subjects to save their life. I've found nerds as a teenager to be one of the most judging, toxic group of people who actually care far more about popularity than anyone else at school. (How many other groups made lists of tables by popularity?)

dropit_sphere 6y ago
> No one cares if you enjoy programming or computers as long as you act relatively 'normal'. It's not that nerds care about intelligence more than popularity (trust me most aren't) it's just that the nerds have already lost the popularity race by being socially awkward individuals that can't hold a conversation about any topics other than very specific subjects to save their life. This passage makes me think you missed the points of the essay. PG isn't saying "people hate people who enjoy computers and want to shove them into lockers." Rather, he's saying that status competition in middle/high school is a brutal Darwinian struggle, and those who have anything stopping them from optimizing solely for status, will lose the race. Your comment about awkwardness/inability to hold a conversation doesn't strike true either. Rather, I felt like no one else could hold a conversation. Time has born this out; many of my nerd friends have gone on to people/verbal professions, and I'm one of the more gregarious developers you'll meet. I played a lot of sports and so had substantial intercourse with my school's popular crowd---I would not list "conversation" as one of their strengths. Now, one caveat here: The idea that "nerds are just awkward weirdos" isn't entirely without base. I think there are two types of people who get labeled as "weird" --- actually-messed-up people, and also people who are interested in something out-of-context. The trouble with school is that, because your actions don't affect the world, it's impossible to distinguish between the two---like how you couldn't tell Einstein from the Time Cube guy (https://timecube.2enp.com/ https://timecube.2enp.com/) if you couldn't do experiments.

xupybd 6y ago

From what I have heard schooling in Vietnam is the opposite. Good grades make you popular. I think culture has a lot to do with it.

JimTheMan 6y ago

Paul Graham and I haven't been in high school for a loooong time. My suspicion is that things have changed somewhat. That the youth are somewhat more tolerant and mature than they were back in my day. The kids I meet seem way ahead of where I was in high school. Like in the movie 21 jump street, where 2 cops go undecover at a school, jock and unpopular kid. Only the jock learns his ways are no longer 'cool'.

nikhilsimha 6y ago

Since we(comments and PG) are all peddling anecdotes.. IME, the dynamics in Indian schools, are polar opposite to the ones described here. "Nerds" tend to do well in both academics and extracurriculars. And in the majority case can also be referred to simultaneously as "Jocks". The separation between "nerds" and "jocks" into two ends of a (lunch table) spectrum is the biggest culture shock to me. The words that separate "nerds" and "jocks" don't exist in my native language's vocabulary even. For the longest time, I believed that intelligence is a broadly applicable trait, that translates well to rapid spatial reasoning(sports), abstract reasoning(academics) and emotional awareness(social). I haven't seen even a single exception to the rule while going through the Indian school system. While there is some truth to it. IMHO, it has to do with cultural ideals that "adults" adhere to. Academic achievement isn't celebrated culturally in US (relatively speaking). I say that while also simultaneously acknowledging that the current Indian definition of academic achievement is disastrously narrow and breeds a culture of arrogance and intellectual insecurity.

abdullahkhalids 6y ago
As a Pakistani, school was not as described in the essay, but there were definitely elements of it. Some people were definitely bad at academics (by choice sometimes), but good at various extracurriculars. There were definitely "jocks" who excelled at sports or music or debates, and were in danger of being kicked out because of grades. Some of the "jocks" had bad social skills, a lot of the "nerds" had excellent social skills. But people were absolutely not excluded from friendships because of what activities they participated in. I saw all sorts of friendships, because people just liked people. There was bullying, but it happened for other reasons.
muzani 6y ago
This might be the case in many Asian countries too. Me and my classmates grew up watching American (and Japanese) high school movies, but the stereotypes never stuck. Bullying exists, but the bullies were often the ones who did well in class. Bullies are those who pick on easy prey weaker than them, and those who got isolated into the "dumb classes" were easily bullied. Move up in university and boarding school, and bullying became a lot more extreme, heavily controlled by the ones with good grades. The kids with bad grades tended to have less willpower, come from poorer families, smoked and had less stamina, dressed poorly and couldn't afford tuition. They had a lot of discrimination stacked against them, and were easily oppressed by the "nerds". I would categorize myself as a nerd in that I didn't bother with how I looked or dressed, or that I had bad handwriting. But that attitude lent me a more regal reputation in school; similar to punk or "bad boy" instead.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Jemm 6y ago

The problem with normal is that it involves complicity with social norms which to many of us are horrible.

majinuub 6y ago

I think its pretty cut and clear. Nerds tend to be socially awkward and introverted. The introversion makes them less likely to socialize outside their own groups. When they do socialize, their awkwardness makes interactions difficult.

helen___keller 6y ago

When I went to high school in 2010, nerds were much less defined by having an eccentric hobby like DnD, and much more defined by taking a shitload of AP courses in an attempt to get accepted to a top tier college. And that's not negative: going to an elite university like Harvard is definitively cool. Describing yourself as nerdy or geeky doesn't have a negative connotation. The nerds of the late 20th century are now literally filthy rich, and everyone has a computing device in their pocket, uses the internet 16 hours a day, and was into game of thrones prior to the last season.