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I'd love if software required a degree. I have a degree and pretty much everybody I ever worked with has a degree. Looking around the entire floor there's only

I'd love if software required a degree. I have a degree and pretty much everybody I ever worked with has a degree. Looking around the entire floor there's only one person without a degree I am aware of. It's a myth that you can work without a degree, you'd never get a job interview in the first place. Seems to be mostly a US myth by the way, makes sense because degrees are crazy expensive there.

raziel2p 6y ago
This just sounds like a heavy dose of confirmation and/or affinity bias. The best developers I've worked with had no degree at all or a degree in something completely separate from development. I think a healthy mix of both academic and purely practical experience is the best.
- user5994461 6y ago
  I will reply to this comment since this is probably the most relevant. You're on point that there is a personal bias. Developers without degrees congregate together where they can, while developers with degrees congregate together to other places. There is a major self selection. Saw a lot of the first when I was doing contracting in the UK, saw a lot of the later as permanent in tech companies. If you're interviewing for google you're way more likely to have 2 stanford majors in the interview panel than 2 developers without format education.
Dumblydorr 6y ago
How many of the incredibly successful people we know of in the industry were drop outs? I can think of quite a few, and I know of other engineers who thought their CS program was vastly inferior to devoting 100% attention to their company, which they could give maybe 33% to due to classes and undergrad life.
- iaw 6y ago
  You're describing founders of companies not software engineer employees.
- user5994461 6y ago
  To be fair, you should do the exercice, write down the names and check if they had a formal education. You will probably find out that they all do. The common figures (google/facebook for examples) are typical college graduates from a very top school, who happened to drop in the last year of bachelor or master to found a company, sponsored by their university network and connections. By the way I was talking having having a formal education versus no formal education and you're trying to move the conversation to dropouts. Dropping in the last year of a top US school (because you were given half a million dollar to form a company) qualifies as having a formal education.
  - pwinnski 6y ago
    So 3.5 years meets your standard. Good to know. What about three years? Two? One? We know zero higher education doesn't meet your standard, and 3.5 years does, so I'm trying to figure out where you draw the line.
- ThrowawayR2 6y ago
  > "How many of the incredibly successful people we know of in the industry were drop outs Knuth, Dijkstra, Kernighan, Ritchie, etc. all had degrees, although some are non-CS because CS degrees weren't a thing back then. Linus Torvalds, Dave Cutler, and Theo de Raadt all have degrees. The only hardcore coder (i.e. not a business person) without a degree I can think of is John Carmack.
  - scruple 6y ago
    jwz and Carmack are the canonical examples but I also can't think of anyone else who is as widely known as those two.
    - lacker 6y ago
      Vitalik Buterin is another well-known example.
falcolas 6y ago
It's hardly a myth. It's not exceptionally common these days with everyone assuming Google's requirements for hiring, but it's not impossible. How do I know it's not a myth? I have a software architect title, having moved my way up to here from QA. One of the staff developers I work with has a degree in Physics. So does a senior operations engineer.
beardedetim 6y ago
As someone from the US but worked for many remote/global companies: I've never noticed if anyone on my teams had a degree or not. Those that talked about having a degree often lowered the team's velocity and were the weakest members on the team. Anecdotal but seems to be common among my friends/advisors.
carlosdp 6y ago
Conversely, some of the best engineers I've worked with either didn't have degrees or had degrees in things like economics. It's pretty common in silicon valley, which should be no surprise given how many titans of the industry themselves didn't graduate college.
kogus 6y ago
It is not a myth. About a quarter of developers do not have a degree. Source: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#education https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#education
marcus_holmes 6y ago
I've been working in IT for 25+ years, no CS degree. I got an MBA after 15 years because it was more relevant.
Regenschirm 6y ago
I don't have a degree. I'm still quite good. I don't think a degree helps. I have seen plenty of very avg software developres, i wouldn't wanna have on my team, with degrees
- johnisgood 6y ago
  I do not have a degree, and I am helping my friend with her CS assignments. The curriculum sucks at her university, to be honest.
donmcronald 6y ago
Something I never understood when I was younger is the professional networking side of getting a degree is just as or more important than the educational side. Yeah, it's good to have knowledge, but you can learn most of it after the fact, especially with the resources available online these days. However, you can't learn or get a do over on getting in with the right social group. That's why so many "successful" people come from ivy league schools even though some of them seem to be pretty dumb. It's more about getting into a rich and powerful social group than getting an education. Once you're in with that group you have a very high chance of success as long as you're not a total fuck up.
johnaoss 6y ago
There's not really a good reason I can think of to require a degree to write software. Sure it shows a basic level of competency, but there are still often graduates who can barely code. There's also some absolutely incredible developers who come from non-traditional backgrounds that would not even be considered by this requirement. While it's most likely currently the case where finding a job without a degree is hard, I don't think a hard requirement for a degree should be a valid means of evaluating job applicants.
hpen 6y ago
Why would you love if software required a degree? Would it make you feel more special? I recently got a job as a software engineer without a degree. And I can get plenty of interviews.
- user5994461 6y ago
  It would make it much easier to find a job and the salaries would be a higher (assuming one has a degree). Developers really don't realize how bad they have it. If you have friends who passed to be doctors, nurses, lawyers, they can all have a much easier and longer career. You will see what are your prospects after 15 years of development, if you were not driven out of the industry, it's grim.
  - rcoveson 6y ago
    I'd take my financial experience as a college dropout software engineer over that of a doctor or lawyer any day. I get to spend my 20's debt free and mega rich (by young adult standards), and I've been able to save most of my considerable income. I think the average doctor's net worth might surpass mine in their late 30's, and would certainly accelerate beyond what I could ever keep up with. But so what? I get to spend an entire life never stressing about money once, while they have to stress over student debt for 15-20 years. My "prospects after 10 years of development" are going to be "figuring out what to do now that my house is paid off and I don't need to make half as much as I do anymore". Compare those to a doctor's prospects after 10 years of college: "Time to start making money for the first time!"
  - pwinnski 6y ago
    I'm sorry your observation leads you to have such a negative view of things. Clearly your lived experience must be radically different from mine. I've been a software developer for 30 years now, and never got a degree. I do have friends that are doctors and lawyers, and I prefer my career path to theirs. I started working and earning at 18, rather than going through 8 years of expensive schooling. All these years later (your 15 years doubled), I'm still in-demand, still earning reasonably well, and don't experience the levels of stress or work the long hours my doctor and lawyer friends do. But hey, when I was young, it was just doctors and lawyers who earned big money. Now it's doctors, lawyers, and software developers, so that's a huge gain for software! And still, only about 75% or so of software developers have degrees at all, let alone eight years of school and two degrees like are required to be a doctor or lawyer. I've spent the last month interviewing for new "Senior Java Developer" positions, and I can assure you, having a degree does not mean one's prospects are automatically good. Or that one know what one is doing, even.
lacker 6y ago
During my time as a manager at Facebook there at least 4 different engineers on my team who did not have a college degree. It’s certainly harder to break in without one, but it’s possible.
Kaze404 6y ago
4 years going strong without a degree here. Not in the US either.

raziel2p 6y ago

This just sounds like a heavy dose of confirmation and/or affinity bias. The best developers I've worked with had no degree at all or a degree in something completely separate from development. I think a healthy mix of both academic and purely practical experience is the best.

user5994461 6y ago
I will reply to this comment since this is probably the most relevant. You're on point that there is a personal bias. Developers without degrees congregate together where they can, while developers with degrees congregate together to other places. There is a major self selection. Saw a lot of the first when I was doing contracting in the UK, saw a lot of the later as permanent in tech companies. If you're interviewing for google you're way more likely to have 2 stanford majors in the interview panel than 2 developers without format education.

Dumblydorr 6y ago

How many of the incredibly successful people we know of in the industry were drop outs? I can think of quite a few, and I know of other engineers who thought their CS program was vastly inferior to devoting 100% attention to their company, which they could give maybe 33% to due to classes and undergrad life.

iaw 6y ago
You're describing founders of companies not software engineer employees.
user5994461 6y ago
To be fair, you should do the exercice, write down the names and check if they had a formal education. You will probably find out that they all do. The common figures (google/facebook for examples) are typical college graduates from a very top school, who happened to drop in the last year of bachelor or master to found a company, sponsored by their university network and connections. By the way I was talking having having a formal education versus no formal education and you're trying to move the conversation to dropouts. Dropping in the last year of a top US school (because you were given half a million dollar to form a company) qualifies as having a formal education.
- pwinnski 6y ago
  So 3.5 years meets your standard. Good to know. What about three years? Two? One? We know zero higher education doesn't meet your standard, and 3.5 years does, so I'm trying to figure out where you draw the line.
ThrowawayR2 6y ago
> "How many of the incredibly successful people we know of in the industry were drop outs Knuth, Dijkstra, Kernighan, Ritchie, etc. all had degrees, although some are non-CS because CS degrees weren't a thing back then. Linus Torvalds, Dave Cutler, and Theo de Raadt all have degrees. The only hardcore coder (i.e. not a business person) without a degree I can think of is John Carmack.
- scruple 6y ago
  jwz and Carmack are the canonical examples but I also can't think of anyone else who is as widely known as those two.
  - lacker 6y ago
    Vitalik Buterin is another well-known example.

falcolas 6y ago

It's hardly a myth. It's not exceptionally common these days with everyone assuming Google's requirements for hiring, but it's not impossible. How do I know it's not a myth? I have a software architect title, having moved my way up to here from QA. One of the staff developers I work with has a degree in Physics. So does a senior operations engineer.

beardedetim 6y ago

As someone from the US but worked for many remote/global companies: I've never noticed if anyone on my teams had a degree or not. Those that talked about having a degree often lowered the team's velocity and were the weakest members on the team. Anecdotal but seems to be common among my friends/advisors.

carlosdp 6y ago

Conversely, some of the best engineers I've worked with either didn't have degrees or had degrees in things like economics. It's pretty common in silicon valley, which should be no surprise given how many titans of the industry themselves didn't graduate college.

kogus 6y ago

It is not a myth. About a quarter of developers do not have a degree. Source: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#education https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#education

marcus_holmes 6y ago

I've been working in IT for 25+ years, no CS degree. I got an MBA after 15 years because it was more relevant.

Regenschirm 6y ago

I don't have a degree. I'm still quite good. I don't think a degree helps. I have seen plenty of very avg software developres, i wouldn't wanna have on my team, with degrees

johnisgood 6y ago
I do not have a degree, and I am helping my friend with her CS assignments. The curriculum sucks at her university, to be honest.

donmcronald 6y ago

Something I never understood when I was younger is the professional networking side of getting a degree is just as or more important than the educational side. Yeah, it's good to have knowledge, but you can learn most of it after the fact, especially with the resources available online these days. However, you can't learn or get a do over on getting in with the right social group. That's why so many "successful" people come from ivy league schools even though some of them seem to be pretty dumb. It's more about getting into a rich and powerful social group than getting an education. Once you're in with that group you have a very high chance of success as long as you're not a total fuck up.

johnaoss 6y ago

There's not really a good reason I can think of to require a degree to write software. Sure it shows a basic level of competency, but there are still often graduates who can barely code. There's also some absolutely incredible developers who come from non-traditional backgrounds that would not even be considered by this requirement. While it's most likely currently the case where finding a job without a degree is hard, I don't think a hard requirement for a degree should be a valid means of evaluating job applicants.

hpen 6y ago

Why would you love if software required a degree? Would it make you feel more special? I recently got a job as a software engineer without a degree. And I can get plenty of interviews.

user5994461 6y ago
It would make it much easier to find a job and the salaries would be a higher (assuming one has a degree). Developers really don't realize how bad they have it. If you have friends who passed to be doctors, nurses, lawyers, they can all have a much easier and longer career. You will see what are your prospects after 15 years of development, if you were not driven out of the industry, it's grim.
- rcoveson 6y ago
  I'd take my financial experience as a college dropout software engineer over that of a doctor or lawyer any day. I get to spend my 20's debt free and mega rich (by young adult standards), and I've been able to save most of my considerable income. I think the average doctor's net worth might surpass mine in their late 30's, and would certainly accelerate beyond what I could ever keep up with. But so what? I get to spend an entire life never stressing about money once, while they have to stress over student debt for 15-20 years. My "prospects after 10 years of development" are going to be "figuring out what to do now that my house is paid off and I don't need to make half as much as I do anymore". Compare those to a doctor's prospects after 10 years of college: "Time to start making money for the first time!"
- pwinnski 6y ago
  I'm sorry your observation leads you to have such a negative view of things. Clearly your lived experience must be radically different from mine. I've been a software developer for 30 years now, and never got a degree. I do have friends that are doctors and lawyers, and I prefer my career path to theirs. I started working and earning at 18, rather than going through 8 years of expensive schooling. All these years later (your 15 years doubled), I'm still in-demand, still earning reasonably well, and don't experience the levels of stress or work the long hours my doctor and lawyer friends do. But hey, when I was young, it was just doctors and lawyers who earned big money. Now it's doctors, lawyers, and software developers, so that's a huge gain for software! And still, only about 75% or so of software developers have degrees at all, let alone eight years of school and two degrees like are required to be a doctor or lawyer. I've spent the last month interviewing for new "Senior Java Developer" positions, and I can assure you, having a degree does not mean one's prospects are automatically good. Or that one know what one is doing, even.

lacker 6y ago

During my time as a manager at Facebook there at least 4 different engineers on my team who did not have a college degree. It’s certainly harder to break in without one, but it’s possible.

Kaze404 6y ago

4 years going strong without a degree here. Not in the US either.