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On the other hand, if software engineers were interviewed like doctors, anyone who didn’t have a U.S. graduate degree would be immediately rejected. Anyone with
by lacker 6y ago
On the other hand, if software engineers were interviewed like doctors, anyone who didn’t have a U.S. graduate degree would be immediately rejected. Anyone with great experience in another country would be immediately rejected. That is most of the good doctors in the world! The doctor interviewing process is simplified by rejecting the vast majority of qualified candidates before even interviewing them.
I think the field of software engineering is doing quite well with its interviewing compared to other fields. Having all of these rigorous interviews sometimes ends up evaluating people based on things that shouldn’t be so important, but the upside is that you can be far less reliant on credentials.
- user5994461 6y agoI'd love if software required a degree. I have a degree and pretty much everybody I ever worked with has a degree. Looking around the entire floor there's only one person without a degree I am aware of. It's a myth that you can work without a degree, you'd never get a job interview in the first place. Seems to be mostly a US myth by the way, makes sense because degrees are crazy expensive there.
- raziel2p 6y agoThis just sounds like a heavy dose of confirmation and/or affinity bias. The best developers I've worked with had no degree at all or a degree in something completely separate from development. I think a healthy mix of both academic and purely practical experience is the best.
- user5994461 6y agoI will reply to this comment since this is probably the most relevant. You're on point that there is a personal bias. Developers without degrees congregate together where they can, while developers with degrees congregate together to other places. There is a major self selection. Saw a lot of the first when I was doing contracting in the UK, saw a lot of the later as permanent in tech companies. If you're interviewing for google you're way more likely to have 2 stanford majors in the interview panel than 2 developers without format education.
- Dumblydorr 6y agoHow many of the incredibly successful people we know of in the industry were drop outs? I can think of quite a few, and I know of other engineers who thought their CS program was vastly inferior to devoting 100% attention to their company, which they could give maybe 33% to due to classes and undergrad life.
- iaw 6y agoYou're describing founders of companies not software engineer employees.
- user5994461 6y agoTo be fair, you should do the exercice, write down the names and check if they had a formal education. You will probably find out that they all do. The common figures (google/facebook for examples) are typical college graduates from a very top school, who happened to drop in the last year of bachelor or master to found a company, sponsored by their university network and connections. By the way I was talking having having a formal education versus no formal education and you're trying to move the conversation to dropouts. Dropping in the last year of a top US school (because you were given half a million dollar to form a company) qualifies as having a formal education.
- pwinnski 6y agoSo 3.5 years meets your standard. Good to know. What about three years? Two? One? We know zero higher education doesn't meet your standard, and 3.5 years does, so I'm trying to figure out where you draw the line.
- ThrowawayR2 6y ago> "How many of the incredibly successful people we know of in the industry were drop outs Knuth, Dijkstra, Kernighan, Ritchie, etc. all had degrees, although some are non-CS because CS degrees weren't a thing back then. Linus Torvalds, Dave Cutler, and Theo de Raadt all have degrees. The only hardcore coder (i.e. not a business person) without a degree I can think of is John Carmack.
- falcolas 6y agoIt's hardly a myth. It's not exceptionally common these days with everyone assuming Google's requirements for hiring, but it's not impossible. How do I know it's not a myth? I have a software architect title, having moved my way up to here from QA. One of the staff developers I work with has a degree in Physics. So does a senior operations engineer.
- beardedetim 6y agoAs someone from the US but worked for many remote/global companies: I've never noticed if anyone on my teams had a degree or not. Those that talked about having a degree often lowered the team's velocity and were the weakest members on the team. Anecdotal but seems to be common among my friends/advisors.
- carlosdp 6y agoConversely, some of the best engineers I've worked with either didn't have degrees or had degrees in things like economics. It's pretty common in silicon valley, which should be no surprise given how many titans of the industry themselves didn't graduate college.
- kogus 6y agoIt is not a myth. About a quarter of developers do not have a degree. Source: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#education https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#education
- marcus_holmes 6y agoI've been working in IT for 25+ years, no CS degree. I got an MBA after 15 years because it was more relevant.
- Regenschirm 6y agoI don't have a degree. I'm still quite good. I don't think a degree helps. I have seen plenty of very avg software developres, i wouldn't wanna have on my team, with degrees
- johnisgood 6y agoI do not have a degree, and I am helping my friend with her CS assignments. The curriculum sucks at her university, to be honest.
- donmcronald 6y agoSomething I never understood when I was younger is the professional networking side of getting a degree is just as or more important than the educational side. Yeah, it's good to have knowledge, but you can learn most of it after the fact, especially with the resources available online these days. However, you can't learn or get a do over on getting in with the right social group. That's why so many "successful" people come from ivy league schools even though some of them seem to be pretty dumb. It's more about getting into a rich and powerful social group than getting an education. Once you're in with that group you have a very high chance of success as long as you're not a total fuck up.
- johnaoss 6y agoThere's not really a good reason I can think of to require a degree to write software. Sure it shows a basic level of competency, but there are still often graduates who can barely code. There's also some absolutely incredible developers who come from non-traditional backgrounds that would not even be considered by this requirement. While it's most likely currently the case where finding a job without a degree is hard, I don't think a hard requirement for a degree should be a valid means of evaluating job applicants.
- hpen 6y agoWhy would you love if software required a degree? Would it make you feel more special? I recently got a job as a software engineer without a degree. And I can get plenty of interviews.
- user5994461 6y agoIt would make it much easier to find a job and the salaries would be a higher (assuming one has a degree). Developers really don't realize how bad they have it. If you have friends who passed to be doctors, nurses, lawyers, they can all have a much easier and longer career. You will see what are your prospects after 15 years of development, if you were not driven out of the industry, it's grim.
- rcoveson 6y agoI'd take my financial experience as a college dropout software engineer over that of a doctor or lawyer any day. I get to spend my 20's debt free and mega rich (by young adult standards), and I've been able to save most of my considerable income. I think the average doctor's net worth might surpass mine in their late 30's, and would certainly accelerate beyond what I could ever keep up with. But so what? I get to spend an entire life never stressing about money once, while they have to stress over student debt for 15-20 years. My "prospects after 10 years of development" are going to be "figuring out what to do now that my house is paid off and I don't need to make half as much as I do anymore". Compare those to a doctor's prospects after 10 years of college: "Time to start making money for the first time!"
- pwinnski 6y agoI'm sorry your observation leads you to have such a negative view of things. Clearly your lived experience must be radically different from mine. I've been a software developer for 30 years now, and never got a degree. I do have friends that are doctors and lawyers, and I prefer my career path to theirs. I started working and earning at 18, rather than going through 8 years of expensive schooling. All these years later (your 15 years doubled), I'm still in-demand, still earning reasonably well, and don't experience the levels of stress or work the long hours my doctor and lawyer friends do. But hey, when I was young, it was just doctors and lawyers who earned big money. Now it's doctors, lawyers, and software developers, so that's a huge gain for software! And still, only about 75% or so of software developers have degrees at all, let alone eight years of school and two degrees like are required to be a doctor or lawyer. I've spent the last month interviewing for new "Senior Java Developer" positions, and I can assure you, having a degree does not mean one's prospects are automatically good. Or that one know what one is doing, even.
- lacker 6y agoDuring my time as a manager at Facebook there at least 4 different engineers on my team who did not have a college degree. It’s certainly harder to break in without one, but it’s possible.
- Kaze404 6y ago4 years going strong without a degree here. Not in the US either.
- vsareto 6y agoBeing less reliant on creds helps newer folks, while more senior folks have to maintain that ability for the sole purpose of interviewing. To me, if you can't substitute a verified credential or experience in place of a technical interview, it just shows they implicitly prefer newer folks.
- cameronfraser 6y agoI've never been asked these questions for senior+ interviews
- pseudalopex 6y agoMany people have.
- BerislavLopac 6y agoHow do you verify experience?
- ssivark 6y agoThis is a good point. Software engineering is one of the most open fields in that it cares relatively little about formal credentials, tests or historical background (what else you’ve worked on). Anyone who has picked up “coding” (etc.) can join in the fray and start adding value, while learning more while doing.
- pjmlp 6y agoPicking up coding isn't Software Engineering.
- BerislavLopac 6y agoInteresting. I have been picking up coding for 25 years now.
- pjmlp 6y agoDoesn't invalidate the point that it isn't Software Engineering, unless you own the accreditation that validates your knowledge across Software Engineering domains and practice, with a degree taken in a certified university.
- BerislavLopac 6y agoWhy is that the only way to validate my knowledge?
- pjmlp 6y agoIt isn't, but then one isn't entitled to call themselves Engineer, just like a village "doctor" isn't one. There is no proof that the person in question would fair well in all domains that get taught during 5 years of engineering school, and follow up experience on the field, without a proper assessment from the engineer board.
- 6y ago
- pjmlp 6y agoOn my country (Portugal) Software Engineering is a professional title, universities are only allowed engineering degrees, including in anything computer related if validated by the order and anyone signing projects where they are liable must have the title validated. To be fair, many skip the title validation because they don't sign such kind of projects, but they still get the title at one of those validated universities if they want most HR departments to actually care to read their CVs.
- dogma1138 6y agoArchitects and Engineers are protected titles in most countries there is an exemption for IT, the EU protected titles also exempts that but local countries may impose their own rules. There are also often different types of protections, in the U.K. for example there is “registered” and “chartered” titles. The registered usually deal with newer titles that didn’t have historic charters and recognition of non-UK accreditation. So for architects for example you can be a registered Architect by registering with the ARB which usually means you need to be registered with a non-UK charter and have a recognized diploma, to be a charter Architect you have to go through the process that RIBA dictates which means getting your education in the UK or in RIBA accredited schools abroad which only gets you to RIBA part 2 and then complete the required experience and exams for Part 3 in the U.K.
- sys_64738 6y agoSoftware developers would also need malpractice insurance to protect them from bugs. This is the difference. What real engineering and medical disciplines enforce is personal responsibility for their actions. If you screw up then you're going to be sued big time. Software always claims zero liability. It's why software development is not real engineering.