6 ms·

Has a coin-cell backup battery which is interesting. I wonder what that's for? Making it a bit harder to reset the clock and disconnect internet to work around

by mastax 6y ago

Has a coin-cell backup battery which is interesting. I wonder what that's for? Making it a bit harder to reset the clock and disconnect internet to work around time limits? Do they do game rentals on PlayStation? Liquid metal is surprising. I think the only other consumer product that uses it is some Asus gaming laptops. They made a video [0] talking about the difficulty of application in a production environment. That cooler is impressive. So many heatpipes, complex geometries, lots of copper. Squirrel-cage (blower) fans are usually a bad sign but that thing is so huge it probably doesn't have to spin very fast. That was pretty much the only way they could fit a big quiet-er fan in a traditional console rectangle. Microsoft took the other approach of changing the case to fit a traditional 135mm PC fan. The dust catchers are a nice attention to detail. Nice to be able to clean the thing without voiding the warranty (in some countries). Wonder how well they work, there's no mesh or anything so I suppose they just designed the airflow to slow down and leave dust behind? I wouldn't be surprised if they're selling these at a loss at $499. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbCw1FD22Bo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbCw1FD22Bo

chungus_khan 6y ago
For the minimal cost of including one, a backup battery is nice enough just to prevent the system time from being reset if the power goes out, same as any other system.
- tpmx 6y ago
  It could get the current time via NTP on startup. It complicates the startup sequence though. Perhaps it's primarily for validating signatures from discs in an offline scenario.
  - chungus_khan 6y ago
    Only if the system is online. While that might be the case for most users, Sony designs their hardware with the consideration that it can be used offline. Considering the unit cost of a PS5, and the fact that backup batteries are already the norm, including one isn't imposing at all and there is very little reason to stop. Inventing software solutions to already solved problems (and ones that don't pass all use-cases) isn't really a path worth going down unless the savings are actually significant.
  - coder543 6y ago
    No. A coin cell wouldn't be used for anything more complicated than keeping a simple real time clock chip powered. Is it possible? Sure, with a level of engineering effort that would far outweigh any possible benefit. If they had something fancy they wanted to do on battery power, they would stick in a Li-ion battery, which they didn't.
    - tpmx 6y ago
      I guess I wasn't super clear. Also, obviously the system is powered on when any disc reading is happening. I was thinking about the issue with key expiration dates and validation. It's not a good user experience to force users to enter the current date every time they boot their offline system.
      - coder543 6y ago
        Ah, I agree with that entirely.
  - netsharc 6y ago
    Didn't Macs have trouble booting if the clock is wrong? IIRC because from the system's point of view some cryptographic certificate's validity is in the future...
    - tpmx 6y ago
      Yeah, that's the problem you want to make sure users don't face every time they power on their device. Guessing: Perhaps, after Fukushima, Japan, like Germany has become very conscious about allowing people to completely shut off their devices when they are not using them? I do remember German computer mags being very concerned with standby/operating power usage already like 15-20 years ago for things like home routers.
      - chungus_khan 6y ago
        Button cell clock batteries have been a thing in most computers since at least the 1980s (including in every previous Playstation console that has an internal clock, PS2 and up), so it's not that unusual to see one in the PS5, and I don't think influenced by anything recent.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - perryizgr8 6y ago
        Every single PC has had a button cell for the RTC. This is nothing as new as Fukushima.
gruez 6y ago
> Has a coin-cell backup battery which is interesting. I wonder what that's for? Isn’t a cmos battery pretty standard on PCs?
- CydeWeys 6y ago
  Yeah, every computer/console/handheld that I'm aware of has a coin cell battery, even if for nothing other than time-keeping. This isn't remotely surprising. Mobile phones are just about the only computer-like thing encountered in your daily life I can think of that don't have a coin-cell battery in them (so they will lose time if their main battery fully discharges and they're off-network).
moviuro 6y ago
> I wouldn't be surprised if they're selling these at a loss at $499. Isn't that how the economics of consoles actually are? The user has to pay for network connectivity (PSN or Gold), publishers have to get their games approved (which was introduced by Nintendo [0]), and then there's a single market for the console (included game store with cut or through authorized discs only). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Entertainment_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Entertainment_System (not as precise a source as I would like) (This was needed to avoid "low-quality" games from ever reaching the consumer, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.T._the_Extra-Terrestrial_(video_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.T._the_Extra-Terrestrial_(vi...
- OskarS 6y ago
  Most importantly, Sony takes a cut on every game sold for the system.
- Const-me 6y ago
  This. And another reason: these consoles gonna stay current for a few years, component prices decline with technical progress, console retail price more or less stays.
bhj 6y ago
> I wouldn't be surprised if they're selling these at a loss at $499. Could one build an equivalent PC (including noise levels, 8 cores, etc.) for even $1000? I'm on the fence; bonus points for a build link. I guess we'll need to see what AMD's midrange next-gen (6000 series) GPUs will cost?
- soylentcola 6y ago
  I'd imagine it's hard to do an apples-to-apples comparison when you're dealing with a) a machine that is typically sold at a loss and made up for with licensing/subscriptions and b) a general purpose computer made of off-the-shelf parts versus a more specialized computer made from high volumes of specific components that provide a single standard to optimize all software.
  - bhj 6y ago
    All true but not necessarily relevant. Hardware is hardware, and I'm trying to compare bang-for-the-buck for equivalent hardware. PS5 and PCs share instruction set, memory interface, GPU type, storage interface (although the PS5 has some unique I/O handling to reduce CPU involvement in moving data around), etc. Sounds like the answer is "no". (and if not, please provide an example build instead of simply downvoting. I'd love to build a dedicated gaming PC, but it has to be worth it)
    - soylentcola 6y ago
      I didn't downvote (I rarely do for anything that isn't shit-talking) but if your only goal is to play video games at a reasonably high level of quality, then yes, I think a games console is always going to be less expensive. I mainly stopped buying consoles because I already need a fairly powerful computer for a lot of other productive and entertainment uses, so for me, the price difference between the computer I "need" and the computer that also plays games really well is mostly the price difference between a decent GPU and a nicer GPU. If you already have all the computer you need for other tasks and it's cheaper to buy an Xbox or Playstation than it is to make the computer more capable of playing games, then it makes more sense to buy a game console.
polytely 6y ago
>Has a coin-cell backup battery which is interesting. I wonder what that's for? Making it a bit harder to reset the clock and disconnect internet to work around time limits? Do they do game rentals on PlayStation? It might be to keep the SSD storage alive if the unit is disconnected from power, correct me on this if I'm wrong but I think SSD's can lose data when they lose power for a long period.
- outworlder 6y ago
  > correct me on this if I'm wrong but I think SSD's can lose data when they lose power for a long period. Consider yourself corrected :) SSDs will not lose data if left unpowered.
  - pengaru 6y ago
    That's not exactly true, but we're talking spans on the order of years without power to start losing data.
    - maven29 6y ago
      Would a coin cell be sufficient to deal with the uncommitted writes still in the SSD's DRAM buffer?
      - pengaru 6y ago
        In his The Amp Hour interview, the late Chuck Peddle described developing new DRAM-based SSDs where they were using super capacitors to power this flushing operation. But I'd assume the coin cell in question here is a conventional RTC battery.
  - polytely 6y ago
    I hereby stand corrected!
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

by mastax 6y ago

chungus_khan 6y ago

For the minimal cost of including one, a backup battery is nice enough just to prevent the system time from being reset if the power goes out, same as any other system.

tpmx 6y ago
It could get the current time via NTP on startup. It complicates the startup sequence though. Perhaps it's primarily for validating signatures from discs in an offline scenario.
- chungus_khan 6y ago
  Only if the system is online. While that might be the case for most users, Sony designs their hardware with the consideration that it can be used offline. Considering the unit cost of a PS5, and the fact that backup batteries are already the norm, including one isn't imposing at all and there is very little reason to stop. Inventing software solutions to already solved problems (and ones that don't pass all use-cases) isn't really a path worth going down unless the savings are actually significant.
- coder543 6y ago
  No. A coin cell wouldn't be used for anything more complicated than keeping a simple real time clock chip powered. Is it possible? Sure, with a level of engineering effort that would far outweigh any possible benefit. If they had something fancy they wanted to do on battery power, they would stick in a Li-ion battery, which they didn't.
  - tpmx 6y ago
    I guess I wasn't super clear. Also, obviously the system is powered on when any disc reading is happening. I was thinking about the issue with key expiration dates and validation. It's not a good user experience to force users to enter the current date every time they boot their offline system.
    - coder543 6y ago
      Ah, I agree with that entirely.
- netsharc 6y ago
  Didn't Macs have trouble booting if the clock is wrong? IIRC because from the system's point of view some cryptographic certificate's validity is in the future...
  - tpmx 6y ago
    Yeah, that's the problem you want to make sure users don't face every time they power on their device. Guessing: Perhaps, after Fukushima, Japan, like Germany has become very conscious about allowing people to completely shut off their devices when they are not using them? I do remember German computer mags being very concerned with standby/operating power usage already like 15-20 years ago for things like home routers.
    - chungus_khan 6y ago
      Button cell clock batteries have been a thing in most computers since at least the 1980s (including in every previous Playstation console that has an internal clock, PS2 and up), so it's not that unusual to see one in the PS5, and I don't think influenced by anything recent.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - perryizgr8 6y ago
      Every single PC has had a button cell for the RTC. This is nothing as new as Fukushima.

gruez 6y ago

> Has a coin-cell backup battery which is interesting. I wonder what that's for? Isn’t a cmos battery pretty standard on PCs?

CydeWeys 6y ago
Yeah, every computer/console/handheld that I'm aware of has a coin cell battery, even if for nothing other than time-keeping. This isn't remotely surprising. Mobile phones are just about the only computer-like thing encountered in your daily life I can think of that don't have a coin-cell battery in them (so they will lose time if their main battery fully discharges and they're off-network).

moviuro 6y ago

> I wouldn't be surprised if they're selling these at a loss at $499. Isn't that how the economics of consoles actually are? The user has to pay for network connectivity (PSN or Gold), publishers have to get their games approved (which was introduced by Nintendo [0]), and then there's a single market for the console (included game store with cut or through authorized discs only). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Entertainment_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Entertainment_System (not as precise a source as I would like) (This was needed to avoid "low-quality" games from ever reaching the consumer, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.T._the_Extra-Terrestrial_(video_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.T._the_Extra-Terrestrial_(vi...

OskarS 6y ago
Most importantly, Sony takes a cut on every game sold for the system.
Const-me 6y ago
This. And another reason: these consoles gonna stay current for a few years, component prices decline with technical progress, console retail price more or less stays.

bhj 6y ago

> I wouldn't be surprised if they're selling these at a loss at $499. Could one build an equivalent PC (including noise levels, 8 cores, etc.) for even $1000? I'm on the fence; bonus points for a build link. I guess we'll need to see what AMD's midrange next-gen (6000 series) GPUs will cost?

soylentcola 6y ago
I'd imagine it's hard to do an apples-to-apples comparison when you're dealing with a) a machine that is typically sold at a loss and made up for with licensing/subscriptions and b) a general purpose computer made of off-the-shelf parts versus a more specialized computer made from high volumes of specific components that provide a single standard to optimize all software.
- bhj 6y ago
  All true but not necessarily relevant. Hardware is hardware, and I'm trying to compare bang-for-the-buck for equivalent hardware. PS5 and PCs share instruction set, memory interface, GPU type, storage interface (although the PS5 has some unique I/O handling to reduce CPU involvement in moving data around), etc. Sounds like the answer is "no". (and if not, please provide an example build instead of simply downvoting. I'd love to build a dedicated gaming PC, but it has to be worth it)
  - soylentcola 6y ago
    I didn't downvote (I rarely do for anything that isn't shit-talking) but if your only goal is to play video games at a reasonably high level of quality, then yes, I think a games console is always going to be less expensive. I mainly stopped buying consoles because I already need a fairly powerful computer for a lot of other productive and entertainment uses, so for me, the price difference between the computer I "need" and the computer that also plays games really well is mostly the price difference between a decent GPU and a nicer GPU. If you already have all the computer you need for other tasks and it's cheaper to buy an Xbox or Playstation than it is to make the computer more capable of playing games, then it makes more sense to buy a game console.

polytely 6y ago

>Has a coin-cell backup battery which is interesting. I wonder what that's for? Making it a bit harder to reset the clock and disconnect internet to work around time limits? Do they do game rentals on PlayStation? It might be to keep the SSD storage alive if the unit is disconnected from power, correct me on this if I'm wrong but I think SSD's can lose data when they lose power for a long period.

outworlder 6y ago
> correct me on this if I'm wrong but I think SSD's can lose data when they lose power for a long period. Consider yourself corrected :) SSDs will not lose data if left unpowered.
- pengaru 6y ago
  That's not exactly true, but we're talking spans on the order of years without power to start losing data.
  - maven29 6y ago
    Would a coin cell be sufficient to deal with the uncommitted writes still in the SSD's DRAM buffer?
    - pengaru 6y ago
      In his The Amp Hour interview, the late Chuck Peddle described developing new DRAM-based SSDs where they were using super capacitors to power this flushing operation. But I'd assume the coin cell in question here is a conventional RTC battery.
- polytely 6y ago
  I hereby stand corrected!

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]