5 ms·

I've been frustrated by the magnified expectations of kids w.r.t. programming because they play sophisticated games compared to the pong/bricks/tetris of my hig

by sriku 6y ago

I've been frustrated by the magnified expectations of kids w.r.t. programming because they play sophisticated games compared to the pong/bricks/tetris of my highschool days. Very hard to satisfy my kids with doing, say, turtle graphics. I'm yet to try Minecraft programming (need windows machine) but that might do it for them as they're into Minecraft. I had a blip of a realization one day when idly talking to the 6yr old with a prolog terminal at hand. Documented that here - http://sriku.org/blog/2019/07/16/prolog-is-magic/ http://sriku.org/blog/2019/07/16/prolog-is-magic/

blackbrokkoli 6y ago
Just putting this out there: You don't need a windows machine. Minecraft, including programming mods like ComputerCraft run fine on Ubuntu (and therefore probably on a lot of other distros).
- mjevans 6y ago
  "Java Edition" is, assuming the system can run "modern" games decently well. I've also heard good things about "ro blocks", but having watched a stream or two I'm less sure of it as a good introduction. Computercraft turtles and LUA aren't terrible, but when I see a FOR loop I think C style, while LUAs is the other kind and I'd really love for that for to be named something like ITER instead.
  - Cyph0n 6y ago
    I think you mean Roblox.
- sriku 6y ago
  I was considering this initially - https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/blog/code-minecraft/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/blog/code-minecraft... - but ComputerCraft (& ComputerCraftEdu) look like a lot more fun. Thanks!
  - blackbrokkoli 6y ago
    Well I never heard of MakeCode, but I can say that I really liked ComputerCraft, especially because it does not try so hard to be educational. Instead it just adds to the gameplay. Quite fund indeed! (I would recommend playing a bigger modpack where ComputerCraft is included)
jrumbut 6y ago
That's awesome! Not sure I've ever seen such a compelling demo that started from nothing. In general I think starting from nothing is the original sin of programming pedagogy. I think it's easier to learn by example, imitation, and extension and then learn the deeper principles once you need them. My wish is a game that would be compelling enough to get a few app store downloads but allows for live editing of the source. Say a soccer game where you can start by changing configuration options like the ball color, then maybe you can find where goals are added in and make yours count for more, eventually basic physics like changing acceleration. Probably not for 6 year olds, but even at the college level I'm not sure about having students start by staring at an empty editor window.
- sriku 6y ago
  > In general I think starting from nothing is the original sin of programming pedagogy I think you're right in saying that. Back when I was in school, I learnt a lot by copying BASIC programs from mags and typing them in and then modifying them. I don't think I even acknowledge that early stage much now given that learning strategies have evolved from there. edit: Thinking back to that, it seems to me that one of the attractive aspects of BASIC for interactive programming was line numbers. You could replace any line by typing a fresh line with the target line number instead of going back to edit the program. There's something innocent and simple about that.
  - jrumbut 6y ago
    I know this is naive but I have a lot of hope for Racket in this space. I'm just hoping it gets more institutional support for making educational tools with it. The line numbers definitely help you imagine the computer mechanically reading and executing the lines. I wasn't taught with BASIC so in the few times I've had to modify a program with meaningful line numbers I have often used make or similar to just put them in for me. I'm glad someone likes them, I never understood why they existed!
    - ywei3410 6y ago
      Racket is a fantastic language! If I may ask, what are you looking for? In your previous comment you alluded to live-reloading and graphics; both of which are possible but a little clunky at the moment.

by sriku 6y ago

blackbrokkoli 6y ago

Just putting this out there: You don't need a windows machine. Minecraft, including programming mods like ComputerCraft run fine on Ubuntu (and therefore probably on a lot of other distros).

mjevans 6y ago
"Java Edition" is, assuming the system can run "modern" games decently well. I've also heard good things about "ro blocks", but having watched a stream or two I'm less sure of it as a good introduction. Computercraft turtles and LUA aren't terrible, but when I see a FOR loop I think C style, while LUAs is the other kind and I'd really love for that for to be named something like ITER instead.
- Cyph0n 6y ago
  I think you mean Roblox.
sriku 6y ago
I was considering this initially - https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/blog/code-minecraft/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/blog/code-minecraft... - but ComputerCraft (& ComputerCraftEdu) look like a lot more fun. Thanks!
- blackbrokkoli 6y ago
  Well I never heard of MakeCode, but I can say that I really liked ComputerCraft, especially because it does not try so hard to be educational. Instead it just adds to the gameplay. Quite fund indeed! (I would recommend playing a bigger modpack where ComputerCraft is included)

jrumbut 6y ago

That's awesome! Not sure I've ever seen such a compelling demo that started from nothing. In general I think starting from nothing is the original sin of programming pedagogy. I think it's easier to learn by example, imitation, and extension and then learn the deeper principles once you need them. My wish is a game that would be compelling enough to get a few app store downloads but allows for live editing of the source. Say a soccer game where you can start by changing configuration options like the ball color, then maybe you can find where goals are added in and make yours count for more, eventually basic physics like changing acceleration. Probably not for 6 year olds, but even at the college level I'm not sure about having students start by staring at an empty editor window.

sriku 6y ago
> In general I think starting from nothing is the original sin of programming pedagogy I think you're right in saying that. Back when I was in school, I learnt a lot by copying BASIC programs from mags and typing them in and then modifying them. I don't think I even acknowledge that early stage much now given that learning strategies have evolved from there. edit: Thinking back to that, it seems to me that one of the attractive aspects of BASIC for interactive programming was line numbers. You could replace any line by typing a fresh line with the target line number instead of going back to edit the program. There's something innocent and simple about that.
- jrumbut 6y ago
  I know this is naive but I have a lot of hope for Racket in this space. I'm just hoping it gets more institutional support for making educational tools with it. The line numbers definitely help you imagine the computer mechanically reading and executing the lines. I wasn't taught with BASIC so in the few times I've had to modify a program with meaningful line numbers I have often used make or similar to just put them in for me. I'm glad someone likes them, I never understood why they existed!
  - ywei3410 6y ago
    Racket is a fantastic language! If I may ask, what are you looking for? In your previous comment you alluded to live-reloading and graphics; both of which are possible but a little clunky at the moment.