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My statements, above, capture the prevailing narratives from both sides. It is important to note that, at this point, it doesn't matter what is true. Which is s

by donw 6y ago

My statements, above, capture the prevailing narratives from both sides. It is important to note that, at this point, it doesn't matter what is true. Which is stupidly hard to determine right now -- institutional credibility is at an all-time low, across the board. What matters right now, in the churn, is what people believe to be true. Human beings are not logical. We construct our beliefs, and search for evidence to support those beliefs, not the other way around. Right now, the set of things-believed-to-be-true between Democrats and Republicans is mutually disjoint. Wholly different realities. I don't see those converging in any peaceful way. Look, I get it. You want your team to win, because the other team is a bunch of People So Horrible That We Can Not Even Speak To Them (Did You See What They Did?!?). If somebody doesn't see what you see, they either need to be educated -- as you are attempting to do with me -- or they are evil, and must be attacked. I do not live in the United States, and I have not for a decade. I am having very complicated thoughts as to whether or not I want to move back, because I am not in any way interested in playing this game. This sucks for non-Americans working outside the US for US companies, by the way. I've seen people absolutely pilloried for failing to conform to social norms that (a) they don't understand; and, (b) do not apply in their countries. From my standpoint, the entire country has gone catastrophically insane, and I do not see this as ending well for anybody.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
howLongHowLong 6y ago
I'm new to HN, and find myself coming here more and more often to luxuriate in open-ended discussions between people with divergent, qualified opinions. I'm realizing the lighter-gray text is donwnvted posts. Is it a large number to cause it? I see nothing inflammatory here, it's a well-reasoned response, where both posters essentially agree - we are at an impasse do to the fundamental incompatability of the modern versions of teams Red and Blue. Am I to infer that the it's being downvoted simply because it suggests that both sides are responsible for the state of affairs? I am used to encountering this in the world from both sides, but it's sort of extra disappointing to see such behavior here. Forgive me if I'm missing something.
- newen 6y ago
  This forum has mostly Americans. There is a recent meme in American politics that says that someone arguing that both sides are the same is a bad thing. Because they're actually arguing in favor of one of the sides in some hidden manner, or because not picking sides only supports a bad status quo, or something like that. Anyway, it's bad and you got to downvote it.
  - donw 6y ago
    At least in terms of my above comment, the things that Republicans believe, and the things that Democrats believe, are both true. But I wouldn't say that they are both the same. That was true before 2016, but 2020 is a Very Different World. Prior to 2016, Americans had two parties that largely colluded with each other to maintain power. This is why they wrestled control of the debates away from the League of Women Voters in the late 80s[1], why third parties disappeared out of the debates shortly thereafter, and why Obama, whom I voted for, governed almost identically to Bush, whom I didn't. Let's call this duopoly the Establishment. 2016 was a brick through both Establishment windows. Bernie from the Left, and Trump from the Right. Bernie got shut down and bought off, but the Republicans, being the official party of milquetoast whining, had no tools to stop Trump. Bernie would have stomped Trump in 2016, by the way. Now, the Democrats are playing the same tune they were in 2016, just cranked up to 11. They had some solid candidates -- I still really like Tulsi -- but either character-assassinated (Tulsi) or ignored (Yang) the hell out of them in favor of Biden. This hasn't done the Democrats any favors. They've been aggressively attacking anybody identified as a heretic, meaning anybody that isn't a hard-line loyalist. I'm not sure that translates to Trump votes, but I don't think it translates to Biden ones, either. Hence, the hostility. The Republicans are in a weird space. The Establishment faction is in total disarray, and the Trump faction is struggling with a civil service that is in large part actively hostile. Washington long-haulers are playing it safe, as if Trump is out come January, they go up against the wall, quite possibly in the literal sense. No idea how things will play out, but the real worry is what happens afterwards. Democrats will not accept a Trump victory. Republicans will not accept a Biden victory. This is a bad place to be, folks. Never thought I would see things like this in my lifetime, but that's where we are. [1] https://www.lwv.org/league-women-voters-and-candidate-debates-changing-relationship https://www.lwv.org/league-women-voters-and-candidate-debate...

by donw 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

howLongHowLong 6y ago

I'm new to HN, and find myself coming here more and more often to luxuriate in open-ended discussions between people with divergent, qualified opinions. I'm realizing the lighter-gray text is donwnvted posts. Is it a large number to cause it? I see nothing inflammatory here, it's a well-reasoned response, where both posters essentially agree - we are at an impasse do to the fundamental incompatability of the modern versions of teams Red and Blue. Am I to infer that the it's being downvoted simply because it suggests that both sides are responsible for the state of affairs? I am used to encountering this in the world from both sides, but it's sort of extra disappointing to see such behavior here. Forgive me if I'm missing something.

newen 6y ago
This forum has mostly Americans. There is a recent meme in American politics that says that someone arguing that both sides are the same is a bad thing. Because they're actually arguing in favor of one of the sides in some hidden manner, or because not picking sides only supports a bad status quo, or something like that. Anyway, it's bad and you got to downvote it.
- donw 6y ago
  At least in terms of my above comment, the things that Republicans believe, and the things that Democrats believe, are both true. But I wouldn't say that they are both the same. That was true before 2016, but 2020 is a Very Different World. Prior to 2016, Americans had two parties that largely colluded with each other to maintain power. This is why they wrestled control of the debates away from the League of Women Voters in the late 80s[1], why third parties disappeared out of the debates shortly thereafter, and why Obama, whom I voted for, governed almost identically to Bush, whom I didn't. Let's call this duopoly the Establishment. 2016 was a brick through both Establishment windows. Bernie from the Left, and Trump from the Right. Bernie got shut down and bought off, but the Republicans, being the official party of milquetoast whining, had no tools to stop Trump. Bernie would have stomped Trump in 2016, by the way. Now, the Democrats are playing the same tune they were in 2016, just cranked up to 11. They had some solid candidates -- I still really like Tulsi -- but either character-assassinated (Tulsi) or ignored (Yang) the hell out of them in favor of Biden. This hasn't done the Democrats any favors. They've been aggressively attacking anybody identified as a heretic, meaning anybody that isn't a hard-line loyalist. I'm not sure that translates to Trump votes, but I don't think it translates to Biden ones, either. Hence, the hostility. The Republicans are in a weird space. The Establishment faction is in total disarray, and the Trump faction is struggling with a civil service that is in large part actively hostile. Washington long-haulers are playing it safe, as if Trump is out come January, they go up against the wall, quite possibly in the literal sense. No idea how things will play out, but the real worry is what happens afterwards. Democrats will not accept a Trump victory. Republicans will not accept a Biden victory. This is a bad place to be, folks. Never thought I would see things like this in my lifetime, but that's where we are. [1] https://www.lwv.org/league-women-voters-and-candidate-debates-changing-relationship https://www.lwv.org/league-women-voters-and-candidate-debate...