5 ms·

As a New Zealander, this level of pay just baffles me. Is the US the only place where SWE's get paid well compared to other professions?

simonbarker87 6y ago
Agreed, I'm in the UK, living in one of the more expensive regions outside London and I'd be considered to be doing pretty well if I hit £50K.
- ErrantX 6y ago
  As a SE? That seem's off - market rate for most of the UK for 5+ years tenure engineer is around 50-60K. Graduate salaries are starting to push high 30's!
  - memsom 6y ago
    Agreed. I'm far south and therefore nowhere near London and this is what I'm seeing. If you are in specific fields, some companies are paying £70-80k+, but you need to have proven skills in the fields they are looking for. The other thing to take in to account with the US figures - taxation. I believe the US tax system taxes the individual directly, where as in the UK we are generally PAYE and taxed at the point we are paid our salary. Maybe someone in the US can confirm that?
    - foldr 6y ago
      >I believe the US tax system taxes the individual directly, where as in the UK we are generally PAYE and taxed at the point we are paid our salary. Maybe someone in the US can confirm that? I've lived in the US. Your taxes are withheld from your pay. Unlike in the UK, everyone has to fill in a tax return - even if all of their income comes from a regular job. You might be due a small refund or owe a small amount at the end of each tax year, but fundamentally you're taxed as you go throughout the year.
      - memsom 6y ago
        And the salaries quoted are gross or net?
        foldr 6y ago
        Gross. In general you couldn't really quote net salaries in the US as your taxes partly depend on which state you live in. So for example, if you work in DC, you could plausibly be living in either DC, Maryland or Virginia, and your taxes would differ accordingly. You'll also most likely have a choice of different health and pension plans at different costs.
        kube-system 6y ago
        And then there’s also city income tax withholdings for those of us who live in those areas....
        purple-again 6y ago
        Almost always gross. When you hear "I make $150,000" in 99.9% of cases that will be the number that are hired at. For that exact number I would expect the actual annual cash in hand to be close to $80,000. Note that is VERY individual circumstances specific. The largest chunk of that missing $70,000 went to taxes at the local, state, and federal level. Easily $45,000 of it is gone in taxes. There is also a common game of moving pre tax dollars around that benefit you, but not exactly the same way a dollar in hand would. The two most common are 401ks (typically 4-8% of gross depending on employee matching) which is money that goes into a retirement account for you and you can't touch it until you are old (55 or 65 or something, not up to date on the numbers there) without incurring both a significant penalty of 10% but also having to pay tax on it the year you withdrawal it. There are a few hardship exclusions like medical, first time home buying etc, where you can dip into this untaxed pool of money but for the most part can't touch it until retirement. The other common pre tax exclusion is an HSA where you get to put pre taxed dollars into an account that can only be used to pay for medical expenses. Essentially every high dollar professional in America takes full advantage of this offering as we all expect to have out of pocket medical expenses and it makes no sense to pay them with taxed dollars instead of pre taxed dollars.
    - jlokier 6y ago
      In the UK it's normal for people to quote salaries "before tax". It's the same in the US, so salary figures are directly comparable (after currency conversion). Taxes are lower in the US, but healthcare costs are much higher and it roughly balances out.
brazzy 6y ago
It's not the US as a whole, it's specifically Silicon Valley and San Francisco where you have this ridiculous concentration of huge software companies (all of FAANG except Amazon have their headquarter there) and venture capital firms (and thus startups), generating an extreme demand for developers. But of course, that demand drives up salaries across the entire USA to some degree.
- C1sc0cat 6y ago
  And the previous what 6 decades of other tech companies traitorous 8 and the Fairchildren.
- gamechangr 6y ago
  It isn't specifically Silicon Valley anymore. Boston, Seattle, and New York would instantly qualify. Some might say Denver and LA as well as many others would have plenty of well paid developers.
epicureanideal 6y ago
It's not just software engineers... Product managers are making 80-100% of what a software engineer makes. So 150-200k even at startups, and upwards from there at FANG. Graphic designers are making 70-100%. Even roles like "Human Resources Manager" are making 150k, because they're automatically "management", even though it's just a Bachelor's degree in Business and not a highly competitive role. "Business analysts" (Excel and specialty tool power users) are making 100k+. No hard STEM degree or brutal interviews required. However, it really is just in a handful of major US tech hubs that the pay is this high in tech. Outside the major tech hubs the high paying professions are the traditional ones... doctor, dentist, lawyer, etc.
- george_morgan 6y ago
  The 'hard STEM degrees' and 'brutal interviews' are irrelevant if the industry is functioning: are the people in these roles are able to perform them and are the companies profitable whilst able to pay high salaries. If they are, there's nothing wrong with this situation.
  - bluGill 6y ago
    Unless you own the company, then the extra pay is coming out of your profits.
    - justincormack 6y ago
      Most businesses like lawyers, finance etc that are largely human based not capital based pay out almost everything to the workers. Often they were structured as partnerships. Even Goldman Sachs was a partnership for a long time until capital requirements increased.
    - JanisL 6y ago
      This isn't a zero-sum situation, paying the workers more can increase overall profits for a company.
867-5309 6y ago
this is partially offset by the cost of living. for example you would pay roughly double for things such as rent and childcare in San Jose compared to Auckland (which is already much more expensive than the rest of NZ)
- kls 6y ago
  Right, while I don't live in that area, I do live in an area with a similar cost of living (Key West), rent on a decent home running near or above 3K and an apartment / townhome in the Key West Oldtown area can run up to 4K. Average dine out meal runs around $30 a plate and fine dining in the area of $50 a plate and up. Don't get me wrong at SV salaries they are not living hand to mouth but when you see those rates from a different cost of living area it can seem like ridiculous numbers but the reality is $150-$170K in that high of a COL area gives you enough to get a decent apartment in a reasonable commute distance, some pocket money for entertainment, healthcare, the ability to put away for a rainy day and it you live modest enough to pack away some retirement. The reality is that should be the base standard for a job. People should earn enough to provide for themselves, and secure their future. To me the fact that, that is no longer the norm in the US is what is shocking. An honest days labor, should command and honest wage, and to me those are the minimum things that should be secured in an honest wage. I see people down here in the FL keys working 2 jobs as the norm to make rent and to pay for the here and now, they cannot even fathom healthcare, rainy-day fund and retirement is not even on their radar. These are not people working restaurant or construction jobs, I see many "professional" jobs moonlight as bartenders, etc.
- nullsense 6y ago
  I did the math though and I would likely be clearing 100k in the bank even with the high cost of living there. Auckland is pretty expensive, and senior engineers here make a lot more than regular 9-5 jobs but I'm not remotely close to clearing that much money in a given year.
  - JAlexoid 6y ago
    Relatively speaking you'd be having the same free cash flow proportionally. It's just that 10% of NZ$100k and US$400 is 4x the difference in absolute terms. You could go to Uber's Pittsburgh office and have a lot of money.... but you'd be in Pittsburgh... If you don't care about quality of life - there are great options world wide to make a lot of money. I would suggest getting into corruption, as an easy way of making millions fast.
nullsense 6y ago
Basically. Check levels.fyi and see for yourself. It's only silicon valley "FAANG" companies that pay $400k total compensation for senior engineers, but principal / staff engineers at the big firms make up to a million. AWS is spinning up a dev team in Auckland though teaming up with Vector on some IOT stuff in the energy space apparently though. I would hope the comp for those positions would be at least $140k NZD, but still that's nowhere near what the fellas over at Google HQ are making for writing protobufs all day.
JAlexoid 6y ago
It's not "US", it's particular regions. San Francisco Bay Area pays a lot, while Cleaveland(OH) pays a third of that. Globally it's the hotspots that pay a lot - London, Dublin, Moscow, Amsterdam, etc. But then the reason why the salaries have skyrocketed - is just lack of supply. I'm planning on leaving the field at 36 already. Moving to doing gardening work and running an olive grove... and there's no one that can replace me in NYC at a snap of their fingers. I bet there are people globally, but getting to work in US is a PITA.
gamechangr 6y ago
It's not a popular answer, but US is by far the most recognized place where SWE's get paid well. What country would be number two? I bet there would be a spirited argument.
- cvhashim 6y ago
  Probably Zurich, SW which matches Silicon Valley salaries
JanisL 6y ago
Cost of living is radically different in some places. That and software engineers are significantly underpaid in NZ (and Australia) relative to their economic output.

simonbarker87 6y ago

Agreed, I'm in the UK, living in one of the more expensive regions outside London and I'd be considered to be doing pretty well if I hit £50K.

ErrantX 6y ago
As a SE? That seem's off - market rate for most of the UK for 5+ years tenure engineer is around 50-60K. Graduate salaries are starting to push high 30's!
- memsom 6y ago
  Agreed. I'm far south and therefore nowhere near London and this is what I'm seeing. If you are in specific fields, some companies are paying £70-80k+, but you need to have proven skills in the fields they are looking for. The other thing to take in to account with the US figures - taxation. I believe the US tax system taxes the individual directly, where as in the UK we are generally PAYE and taxed at the point we are paid our salary. Maybe someone in the US can confirm that?
  - foldr 6y ago
    >I believe the US tax system taxes the individual directly, where as in the UK we are generally PAYE and taxed at the point we are paid our salary. Maybe someone in the US can confirm that? I've lived in the US. Your taxes are withheld from your pay. Unlike in the UK, everyone has to fill in a tax return - even if all of their income comes from a regular job. You might be due a small refund or owe a small amount at the end of each tax year, but fundamentally you're taxed as you go throughout the year.
    - memsom 6y ago
      And the salaries quoted are gross or net?
      - foldr 6y ago
        Gross. In general you couldn't really quote net salaries in the US as your taxes partly depend on which state you live in. So for example, if you work in DC, you could plausibly be living in either DC, Maryland or Virginia, and your taxes would differ accordingly. You'll also most likely have a choice of different health and pension plans at different costs.
        kube-system 6y ago
        And then there’s also city income tax withholdings for those of us who live in those areas....
      - purple-again 6y ago
        Almost always gross. When you hear "I make $150,000" in 99.9% of cases that will be the number that are hired at. For that exact number I would expect the actual annual cash in hand to be close to $80,000. Note that is VERY individual circumstances specific. The largest chunk of that missing $70,000 went to taxes at the local, state, and federal level. Easily $45,000 of it is gone in taxes. There is also a common game of moving pre tax dollars around that benefit you, but not exactly the same way a dollar in hand would. The two most common are 401ks (typically 4-8% of gross depending on employee matching) which is money that goes into a retirement account for you and you can't touch it until you are old (55 or 65 or something, not up to date on the numbers there) without incurring both a significant penalty of 10% but also having to pay tax on it the year you withdrawal it. There are a few hardship exclusions like medical, first time home buying etc, where you can dip into this untaxed pool of money but for the most part can't touch it until retirement. The other common pre tax exclusion is an HSA where you get to put pre taxed dollars into an account that can only be used to pay for medical expenses. Essentially every high dollar professional in America takes full advantage of this offering as we all expect to have out of pocket medical expenses and it makes no sense to pay them with taxed dollars instead of pre taxed dollars.
  - jlokier 6y ago
    In the UK it's normal for people to quote salaries "before tax". It's the same in the US, so salary figures are directly comparable (after currency conversion). Taxes are lower in the US, but healthcare costs are much higher and it roughly balances out.

brazzy 6y ago

It's not the US as a whole, it's specifically Silicon Valley and San Francisco where you have this ridiculous concentration of huge software companies (all of FAANG except Amazon have their headquarter there) and venture capital firms (and thus startups), generating an extreme demand for developers. But of course, that demand drives up salaries across the entire USA to some degree.

C1sc0cat 6y ago
And the previous what 6 decades of other tech companies traitorous 8 and the Fairchildren.
gamechangr 6y ago
It isn't specifically Silicon Valley anymore. Boston, Seattle, and New York would instantly qualify. Some might say Denver and LA as well as many others would have plenty of well paid developers.

epicureanideal 6y ago

It's not just software engineers... Product managers are making 80-100% of what a software engineer makes. So 150-200k even at startups, and upwards from there at FANG. Graphic designers are making 70-100%. Even roles like "Human Resources Manager" are making 150k, because they're automatically "management", even though it's just a Bachelor's degree in Business and not a highly competitive role. "Business analysts" (Excel and specialty tool power users) are making 100k+. No hard STEM degree or brutal interviews required. However, it really is just in a handful of major US tech hubs that the pay is this high in tech. Outside the major tech hubs the high paying professions are the traditional ones... doctor, dentist, lawyer, etc.

george_morgan 6y ago
The 'hard STEM degrees' and 'brutal interviews' are irrelevant if the industry is functioning: are the people in these roles are able to perform them and are the companies profitable whilst able to pay high salaries. If they are, there's nothing wrong with this situation.
- bluGill 6y ago
  Unless you own the company, then the extra pay is coming out of your profits.
  - justincormack 6y ago
    Most businesses like lawyers, finance etc that are largely human based not capital based pay out almost everything to the workers. Often they were structured as partnerships. Even Goldman Sachs was a partnership for a long time until capital requirements increased.
  - JanisL 6y ago
    This isn't a zero-sum situation, paying the workers more can increase overall profits for a company.

867-5309 6y ago

this is partially offset by the cost of living. for example you would pay roughly double for things such as rent and childcare in San Jose compared to Auckland (which is already much more expensive than the rest of NZ)

kls 6y ago
Right, while I don't live in that area, I do live in an area with a similar cost of living (Key West), rent on a decent home running near or above 3K and an apartment / townhome in the Key West Oldtown area can run up to 4K. Average dine out meal runs around $30 a plate and fine dining in the area of $50 a plate and up. Don't get me wrong at SV salaries they are not living hand to mouth but when you see those rates from a different cost of living area it can seem like ridiculous numbers but the reality is $150-$170K in that high of a COL area gives you enough to get a decent apartment in a reasonable commute distance, some pocket money for entertainment, healthcare, the ability to put away for a rainy day and it you live modest enough to pack away some retirement. The reality is that should be the base standard for a job. People should earn enough to provide for themselves, and secure their future. To me the fact that, that is no longer the norm in the US is what is shocking. An honest days labor, should command and honest wage, and to me those are the minimum things that should be secured in an honest wage. I see people down here in the FL keys working 2 jobs as the norm to make rent and to pay for the here and now, they cannot even fathom healthcare, rainy-day fund and retirement is not even on their radar. These are not people working restaurant or construction jobs, I see many "professional" jobs moonlight as bartenders, etc.
nullsense 6y ago
I did the math though and I would likely be clearing 100k in the bank even with the high cost of living there. Auckland is pretty expensive, and senior engineers here make a lot more than regular 9-5 jobs but I'm not remotely close to clearing that much money in a given year.
- JAlexoid 6y ago
  Relatively speaking you'd be having the same free cash flow proportionally. It's just that 10% of NZ$100k and US$400 is 4x the difference in absolute terms. You could go to Uber's Pittsburgh office and have a lot of money.... but you'd be in Pittsburgh... If you don't care about quality of life - there are great options world wide to make a lot of money. I would suggest getting into corruption, as an easy way of making millions fast.

nullsense 6y ago

Basically. Check levels.fyi and see for yourself. It's only silicon valley "FAANG" companies that pay $400k total compensation for senior engineers, but principal / staff engineers at the big firms make up to a million. AWS is spinning up a dev team in Auckland though teaming up with Vector on some IOT stuff in the energy space apparently though. I would hope the comp for those positions would be at least $140k NZD, but still that's nowhere near what the fellas over at Google HQ are making for writing protobufs all day.

JAlexoid 6y ago

It's not "US", it's particular regions. San Francisco Bay Area pays a lot, while Cleaveland(OH) pays a third of that. Globally it's the hotspots that pay a lot - London, Dublin, Moscow, Amsterdam, etc. But then the reason why the salaries have skyrocketed - is just lack of supply. I'm planning on leaving the field at 36 already. Moving to doing gardening work and running an olive grove... and there's no one that can replace me in NYC at a snap of their fingers. I bet there are people globally, but getting to work in US is a PITA.

gamechangr 6y ago

It's not a popular answer, but US is by far the most recognized place where SWE's get paid well. What country would be number two? I bet there would be a spirited argument.

cvhashim 6y ago
Probably Zurich, SW which matches Silicon Valley salaries

JanisL 6y ago

Cost of living is radically different in some places. That and software engineers are significantly underpaid in NZ (and Australia) relative to their economic output.