4 ms·

bias coming from bad experiences in the computer science field https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2020-H1B-Visa-Category.aspx?T=IN https://www.myvisajobs.com/R

bias coming from bad experiences in the computer science field https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2020-H1B-Visa-Category.aspx?T=IN https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2020-H1B-Visa-Category.as... It isn't bias, just look at the H1B distribution, it heavily biased to the CS/IT space. Like for every possible biologist you are imagining, there probably 100 IT/CS guys coming in. I'd love to have the biologists and chemists come in, but the big IT consultancies are massively abusing the system, and that needs to get fixed first. Look at the top company sponsors, not STEM fields like biology, chemistry, and physics. It is entirely software.

ravila4 6y ago
Absolutely. But perhaps it is precisely for this reason that we need a comprehensive and thoughtful reform that takes into account the value added. I am worried that blanket-raising the requirements solves one problem and creates another.
- sanxiyn 6y ago
  I think policy should be evaluated by whether it is better on net, not by whether it has any downside whatsoever. The latter is a sure way to be stuck in status quo.
systemvoltage 6y ago
Why? Are there more jobs for Biologists than Computer Scientists/Developers/Programmers? It looks like this is a response based on demand. Why in the world would you want more biologists when there isn't market demand for them? This is mostly wishful romanticization of particular "underdog" areas of studies. Makes no sense to me. Even more preposterous is the parent's profound claim: > I feel like this thread has a lot of bias coming from bad experiences in the computer science field I don't understand why we are talking about bias? It's not like the market goes "Gee ... we are a software company, but only if we would abandon our biases and hire an archeologist from Columbia and sponsor an H1b visa for them. Not sure what would do with them, but we must hire them though. Hey Rob! You got any ideas man?"
- yters 6y ago
  I think there is something weird going on. I am heavily involved in my company's staffing process, and the vast majority of the referrals we get from our recruiting sources are from overseas (and often cheat and have cruddy IT skills).
- ravila4 6y ago
  China has four times our population, and we are falling behind on many fields. We need all the manpower we can get. On another note, I'd like to raise the point that bringing talent to the country also creates demand. Many of the next generation of startups will be biology-based. THe bias I speak of is in regard to the attitude towards H1B. I have my own different bias, for in my field most people are in favor of it.
- kazagistar 6y ago
  Market forces do a poor job driving science. Its too long term, too risky, and you lose to much to the tragedy of the commons. All but the most trivial and mechanical research mostly happens due to government funding, or as a prestige byproduct of higher education (ie, not directly driven by their profit objectives). So in this case, maybe there is demand in a social sense, not a market sense. Alternatively, large computer science companies may have just greased enough pockets to create regulatory capture of the process, creating the inequality in a non market driven way.
  - AmericanChopper 6y ago
    > Market forces do a poor job driving science. Its too long term, too risky, and you lose to much to the tragedy of the commons Then how did we end up with things like nuclear fusion startups with hundreds of millions of dollars in funding? Market forces do a superb job of driving scientific innovation. We live in the most scientifically innovative period of our history. I find that what people who say this sort of thing actually mean is “the things I perceive to be valuable are insufficiently resourced (according to me)”, rather than “things that are valuable fail to find resourcing”.
    - 6y ago
andrewmutz 6y ago
The US needs way more software engineers than is has, and sky-high salaries are the evidence of this. I think we should make it easier for people to come and work in the US. The existing H1B system works pretty well for employers and employees. When I hear people describe H1B immigrants as somehow taken advantage of, their experience seems far different than mine (I have never seen people mistreated by the system). The idea that this system makes it harder for native software engineers seems crazy to me. I know many software engineers and both the great ones and the terrible ones have no problem finding work.
- hansvm 6y ago
  The window to get kicked out of the country when layoffs happen is pretty narrow, even for people who have lived here for years. It presents a pretty heavy threat if abused because it might be hard to seal the deal on a new job (especially if you're even a little bit selective) before you suddenly become illegal.
  - andrewmutz 6y ago
    From everything I've experienced in the tech industry the thing you've described is just hypothetical. Everyone I know on H1-B wages freely moves between jobs with no problems.
    - sg47 6y ago
      From the outside, it came seem like there are no problems. The process can be nerve-wracking. The interviews need to happen clandestinely because if your current employer finds out and fires you, you have to leave the country in 60 days. After weeks/months of interviewing, your new employer applies for a visa transfer. This process could take 3-4 weeks for application (again nerve-wracking if you are desperate to move), another 15 business days for the application to get adjudicated if you apply through premium processing. Under this administration, denials and Request For Evidence are being issued willy-nilly. So this 15 business days can end up being 30 or more. Again, the mental anguish can be hard if you really want to quit your current employer. Then 2 weeks after resigning. By the time you join your new employer, it could be 2-3 months. By law, one cannot take a break between jobs so you'll have to negotiate with your new employer if you need a break in between. H1B for people from India and China is indentured labor. Even as someone whose compensation is in top 0.5% in the US, it's extremely restrictive. I can't even imagine what the average H1B employee goes through.

ravila4 6y ago

Absolutely. But perhaps it is precisely for this reason that we need a comprehensive and thoughtful reform that takes into account the value added. I am worried that blanket-raising the requirements solves one problem and creates another.

sanxiyn 6y ago
I think policy should be evaluated by whether it is better on net, not by whether it has any downside whatsoever. The latter is a sure way to be stuck in status quo.

systemvoltage 6y ago

Why? Are there more jobs for Biologists than Computer Scientists/Developers/Programmers? It looks like this is a response based on demand. Why in the world would you want more biologists when there isn't market demand for them? This is mostly wishful romanticization of particular "underdog" areas of studies. Makes no sense to me. Even more preposterous is the parent's profound claim: > I feel like this thread has a lot of bias coming from bad experiences in the computer science field I don't understand why we are talking about bias? It's not like the market goes "Gee ... we are a software company, but only if we would abandon our biases and hire an archeologist from Columbia and sponsor an H1b visa for them. Not sure what would do with them, but we must hire them though. Hey Rob! You got any ideas man?"

yters 6y ago
I think there is something weird going on. I am heavily involved in my company's staffing process, and the vast majority of the referrals we get from our recruiting sources are from overseas (and often cheat and have cruddy IT skills).
ravila4 6y ago
China has four times our population, and we are falling behind on many fields. We need all the manpower we can get. On another note, I'd like to raise the point that bringing talent to the country also creates demand. Many of the next generation of startups will be biology-based. THe bias I speak of is in regard to the attitude towards H1B. I have my own different bias, for in my field most people are in favor of it.
kazagistar 6y ago
Market forces do a poor job driving science. Its too long term, too risky, and you lose to much to the tragedy of the commons. All but the most trivial and mechanical research mostly happens due to government funding, or as a prestige byproduct of higher education (ie, not directly driven by their profit objectives). So in this case, maybe there is demand in a social sense, not a market sense. Alternatively, large computer science companies may have just greased enough pockets to create regulatory capture of the process, creating the inequality in a non market driven way.
- AmericanChopper 6y ago
  > Market forces do a poor job driving science. Its too long term, too risky, and you lose to much to the tragedy of the commons Then how did we end up with things like nuclear fusion startups with hundreds of millions of dollars in funding? Market forces do a superb job of driving scientific innovation. We live in the most scientifically innovative period of our history. I find that what people who say this sort of thing actually mean is “the things I perceive to be valuable are insufficiently resourced (according to me)”, rather than “things that are valuable fail to find resourcing”.
  - 6y ago

andrewmutz 6y ago

The US needs way more software engineers than is has, and sky-high salaries are the evidence of this. I think we should make it easier for people to come and work in the US. The existing H1B system works pretty well for employers and employees. When I hear people describe H1B immigrants as somehow taken advantage of, their experience seems far different than mine (I have never seen people mistreated by the system). The idea that this system makes it harder for native software engineers seems crazy to me. I know many software engineers and both the great ones and the terrible ones have no problem finding work.

hansvm 6y ago
The window to get kicked out of the country when layoffs happen is pretty narrow, even for people who have lived here for years. It presents a pretty heavy threat if abused because it might be hard to seal the deal on a new job (especially if you're even a little bit selective) before you suddenly become illegal.
- andrewmutz 6y ago
  From everything I've experienced in the tech industry the thing you've described is just hypothetical. Everyone I know on H1-B wages freely moves between jobs with no problems.
  - sg47 6y ago
    From the outside, it came seem like there are no problems. The process can be nerve-wracking. The interviews need to happen clandestinely because if your current employer finds out and fires you, you have to leave the country in 60 days. After weeks/months of interviewing, your new employer applies for a visa transfer. This process could take 3-4 weeks for application (again nerve-wracking if you are desperate to move), another 15 business days for the application to get adjudicated if you apply through premium processing. Under this administration, denials and Request For Evidence are being issued willy-nilly. So this 15 business days can end up being 30 or more. Again, the mental anguish can be hard if you really want to quit your current employer. Then 2 weeks after resigning. By the time you join your new employer, it could be 2-3 months. By law, one cannot take a break between jobs so you'll have to negotiate with your new employer if you need a break in between. H1B for people from India and China is indentured labor. Even as someone whose compensation is in top 0.5% in the US, it's extremely restrictive. I can't even imagine what the average H1B employee goes through.