3 ms·

If their projects are that important we should be spending more on them so they meet the minimum pay requirements.

by ummonk 6y ago

la6471 6y ago
Did Covid not teach us anything? How long do you think it will take for your job to be offshored? Maybe few years? This will give incentive to increase offshoring to the companies. Mind you - offshoring is not equal to outsourcing. If you work for a Global company like Google or GE - good luck. Stopping immigration is like stopping oxygen ... this economy will slowly stagnate and be overtaken by other more efficient economies. Either you try to dial back time and go back to the 40s with no globalization OR you have to push forward with globalization to level the playing field for all countries wether it is a developed or emerging country and achieve a parity in salary which makes the American workers competitive in the Global scale. Do we have the guts to make the second choice because certainly we cannot go back to the 40s and aim for global dominance via WW3.
- lmg643 6y ago
  Great logic - give up citizen jobs at home because they'll be offshored otherwise. Foolish logic for a country to operate under, and why should any citizens support that kind of policy? Lose either way.
  - la6471 6y ago
    No that is short term outlook. You need to look long term. But I agree the pain of losing a job is real and that’s where UBI comes in. UBI (Universal basic income) is a must because job losses are inevitable wether due to automation / offshoring / health issues or skill shortage. Where will the money from UBI come from? From the companies that profit because of these mechanisms. Tax them , tax the ultra rich folks. If humanity has to continue its progress in the current path this has to be the future. If you have an alternative in mind please share.
    - lmg643 6y ago
      more great logic - we need to outsource jobs so the companies can earn a higher profit to pay UBI to the citizens they displaced. This is the equivalent of a ponzi scheme if you think about it - unsustainable. US is a country, not a company - citizens are non-voluntary members - some of them have ancestors that served and died to make it what it is. US did not magically become an epicenter of innovation where Google could be created, it took the whole history of the country to get to this point. If "more efficient economies" were about to take over, people would stay home. folks continue to come to the US because it is still best here. some of the "more efficient economies" come from are growing by widescale industrial espionage, made easier by lax controls on intellectual property. People still come here. Other emerging economies have almost intractable demographic issues that only so much hope can address. The US would be well served to not blindly repeat the mistakes of other countries for the sake of short term economic gain.
      - la6471 6y ago
        So to your first point you need to understand I am not taking about “needing” to outsource/offshoring to provide UBI to citizens. No, “offShoring” is “needed” by companies to be more efficient and profitable. It is a business decision. That is inevitable if US companies wants to stay competitive in the global market. If not outsourcing or offshoring there WILL be automation as time goes on and many skills will become older or stale. This is also inevitable. If you deny these trends you are living under a rock really. Now in your answer I do sense some frustrations around demographic changes , which is also real , but again that kind of thinking leads to stereotyping biases and sometimes making the wrong judgement, which I think we can all do without and definitely the United States constitution does not prescribe classes of citizens based on ancestry. But to all the other issues UBI is the answer not stopping the profitability of companies. Secondly the fact is most of the developed countries run on successful immigration policies. Countries like Japan which did not encourage immigration until recently had a stagnating economy for a very long time. Only recently they are loosening up immigration to help boost the economy. In fact the reason USA is a great place to come and work for many SKILLED immigrants is that immigrants has contributed greatly in the last three decades and helpers US companies to dominate in the global competition and increase their profit to stellar levels. Look at any of the global hi tech companies from IBM to Microsoft and you will see immigrants holding not only back office roles but also holding all kinds of positions from middle managers to being CEOs. Do you think these companies could have been so successful without the contribution of the immigrant communities? These companies success are America’s recent success and let us not deny this fact or take steps that will kill this glorious fountain of prosperity and innovation.
  - davrosthedalek 6y ago
    Give up some, or give up all. Same reason capital gains tax is lower than income tax.
- blondie9x 6y ago
  They have to restrict offshore and outsourcing in parallel to visas or this would be a total wasted effort. It would actually backfire if not done in unison.
- sk2020 6y ago
  Go to upwork, pick a skilled job, like Java development or mechanical engineering, and then browse labor rates for people outside of the US. You have CAD drafters in Pakistan billing at $5/hr. Easily a 75% discount on a skilled American. Pop-wisdom is that <$15/hr “isn’t a living wage”. These economies are efficient in the sense that much of their population lives in poverty, the likes of which is almost entirely absent from the US. We basically won’t let anyone starve if they don’t refuse help, and we subsidize even the most stupid and violent members of our population out of compassion (and sometimes for votes). Personally, I would not welcome depressing US wages to a global mean while political apparatchiks and the idle class pocket the difference. I don’t think you really want that either.
  - destinyawe 6y ago
    Excuse me .. yes $5 is charged but only by the entry level / inexperienced ones. Even $5 does not go much in those countries anymore. Experienced coders charge $30 or above from pukistan but I get your point it is still a lowball offer compared to $100 for a US based developer. But tell me if you are a startup and just bootstraping your company with your own savings , where would you look to get your job done? Would you rather pay $100 per hour to a developer based in US or $30 to an experienced developer from somewhere else if your goal is to get your MVP up and running as fast as you can so that you can then attact some venture capital that you can use to hire "real" developers here in USA?
ravila4 6y ago
Part of the problem is that in basic science, it is hard to measure the value of a project until years in the future. But we do allocate money on academic projects -- through federal grants.. nevertheless the base salary for a postdoc is pretty standard across the country, an subpar compared to industry. Hence, salary does not necessarily correlate with importance of the research.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

If their projects are that important we should be spending more on them so they meet the minimum pay requirements.

by ummonk 6y ago

If their projects are that important we should be spending more on them so they meet the minimum pay requirements.

Did Covid not teach us anything? How long do you think it will take for your job to be offshored? Maybe few years? This will give incentive to increase offshoring to the companies. Mind you - offshoring is not equal to outsourcing. If you work for a Global company like Google or GE - good luck. Stopping immigration is like stopping oxygen ... this economy will slowly stagnate and be overtaken by other more efficient economies. Either you try to dial back time and go back to the 40s with no globalization OR you have to push forward with globalization to level the playing field for all countries wether it is a developed or emerging country and achieve a parity in salary which makes the American workers competitive in the Global scale. Do we have the guts to make the second choice because certainly we cannot go back to the 40s and aim for global dominance via WW3.

lmg643 6y ago
Great logic - give up citizen jobs at home because they'll be offshored otherwise. Foolish logic for a country to operate under, and why should any citizens support that kind of policy? Lose either way.
- la6471 6y ago
  No that is short term outlook. You need to look long term. But I agree the pain of losing a job is real and that’s where UBI comes in. UBI (Universal basic income) is a must because job losses are inevitable wether due to automation / offshoring / health issues or skill shortage. Where will the money from UBI come from? From the companies that profit because of these mechanisms. Tax them , tax the ultra rich folks. If humanity has to continue its progress in the current path this has to be the future. If you have an alternative in mind please share.
  - lmg643 6y ago
    more great logic - we need to outsource jobs so the companies can earn a higher profit to pay UBI to the citizens they displaced. This is the equivalent of a ponzi scheme if you think about it - unsustainable. US is a country, not a company - citizens are non-voluntary members - some of them have ancestors that served and died to make it what it is. US did not magically become an epicenter of innovation where Google could be created, it took the whole history of the country to get to this point. If "more efficient economies" were about to take over, people would stay home. folks continue to come to the US because it is still best here. some of the "more efficient economies" come from are growing by widescale industrial espionage, made easier by lax controls on intellectual property. People still come here. Other emerging economies have almost intractable demographic issues that only so much hope can address. The US would be well served to not blindly repeat the mistakes of other countries for the sake of short term economic gain.
    - la6471 6y ago
      So to your first point you need to understand I am not taking about “needing” to outsource/offshoring to provide UBI to citizens. No, “offShoring” is “needed” by companies to be more efficient and profitable. It is a business decision. That is inevitable if US companies wants to stay competitive in the global market. If not outsourcing or offshoring there WILL be automation as time goes on and many skills will become older or stale. This is also inevitable. If you deny these trends you are living under a rock really. Now in your answer I do sense some frustrations around demographic changes , which is also real , but again that kind of thinking leads to stereotyping biases and sometimes making the wrong judgement, which I think we can all do without and definitely the United States constitution does not prescribe classes of citizens based on ancestry. But to all the other issues UBI is the answer not stopping the profitability of companies. Secondly the fact is most of the developed countries run on successful immigration policies. Countries like Japan which did not encourage immigration until recently had a stagnating economy for a very long time. Only recently they are loosening up immigration to help boost the economy. In fact the reason USA is a great place to come and work for many SKILLED immigrants is that immigrants has contributed greatly in the last three decades and helpers US companies to dominate in the global competition and increase their profit to stellar levels. Look at any of the global hi tech companies from IBM to Microsoft and you will see immigrants holding not only back office roles but also holding all kinds of positions from middle managers to being CEOs. Do you think these companies could have been so successful without the contribution of the immigrant communities? These companies success are America’s recent success and let us not deny this fact or take steps that will kill this glorious fountain of prosperity and innovation.
- davrosthedalek 6y ago
  Give up some, or give up all. Same reason capital gains tax is lower than income tax.
blondie9x 6y ago
They have to restrict offshore and outsourcing in parallel to visas or this would be a total wasted effort. It would actually backfire if not done in unison.
sk2020 6y ago
Go to upwork, pick a skilled job, like Java development or mechanical engineering, and then browse labor rates for people outside of the US. You have CAD drafters in Pakistan billing at $5/hr. Easily a 75% discount on a skilled American. Pop-wisdom is that <$15/hr “isn’t a living wage”. These economies are efficient in the sense that much of their population lives in poverty, the likes of which is almost entirely absent from the US. We basically won’t let anyone starve if they don’t refuse help, and we subsidize even the most stupid and violent members of our population out of compassion (and sometimes for votes). Personally, I would not welcome depressing US wages to a global mean while political apparatchiks and the idle class pocket the difference. I don’t think you really want that either.
- destinyawe 6y ago
  Excuse me .. yes $5 is charged but only by the entry level / inexperienced ones. Even $5 does not go much in those countries anymore. Experienced coders charge $30 or above from pukistan but I get your point it is still a lowball offer compared to $100 for a US based developer. But tell me if you are a startup and just bootstraping your company with your own savings , where would you look to get your job done? Would you rather pay $100 per hour to a developer based in US or $30 to an experienced developer from somewhere else if your goal is to get your MVP up and running as fast as you can so that you can then attact some venture capital that you can use to hire "real" developers here in USA?

ravila4 6y ago

Part of the problem is that in basic science, it is hard to measure the value of a project until years in the future. But we do allocate money on academic projects -- through federal grants.. nevertheless the base salary for a postdoc is pretty standard across the country, an subpar compared to industry. Hence, salary does not necessarily correlate with importance of the research.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]