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This isn't surprising. Reformed conservative thinker David Frum warned about this several years ago, with his most notable quote being: "If conservatives becom

This isn't surprising. Reformed conservative thinker David Frum warned about this several years ago, with his most notable quote being: "If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. The will reject democracy."[0] Conservative opposition to democracy has already has wide, deep, roots and extends from kook candidates in blue states up to the Senate (where McConnell described attempts to increase voter turnout as a Democratic 'power grab'[1]) and the Trump circle, which has identified reducing voter turnout by disrupting absentee voting as a critical electoral strategy[2]. This problem isn't going to get any better. [0] https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/56364271-trumpocracy-the-corruption-of-the-american-republic https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/56364271-trumpocracy-t... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/31/us/politics/election-day-holiday-mcconnell.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/31/us/politics/election-day-... [2] https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/trump-campaign-2020-voter-suppression-consent-decree-1028988/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/trum...

abnercoimbre 6y ago
I finished David's latest book [0], and I've been trying to find the quote where he says if Trump wins without the popular vote again then that may cause the majority of Americans to "impose their will" on the nation regardless. Do you recall? I've been seeking to clarify his thoughts there. [0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/49205130-trumpocalypse?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=RWACEK4zTv&rank=2 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/49205130-trumpocalypse?a...
- bleepblorp 6y ago
  Sorry, I can't help as I haven't read that one yet.
  - abnercoimbre 6y ago
    Thanks. Even though I'm on the left, I appreciate David's conservative writing and his policy solutions to prevent another Trump. I'm a little confused about the downvotes, but it seems you've been through worse.
donw 6y ago
> "If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. The will reject democracy." This is true on both sides of the political divide. The narrative from the Right is something like, "The Democrats are trying to steal the election with voter fraud, rioting to intimidate conservative voters, and last-minute changes to voting laws. We need to fight this by pushing Voter ID, for keeping the voting system as-is (either in-person or absentee, but no mail-in voting[1]), and seating our supreme court justice. They can only win by cheating." The narrative from the Left is something like, "The Republicans are trying to win by suppressing the popular vote. We need to fight this by expanding voting to as many people as possible, abolishing the Electoral College, and preventing the Republicans from seating their supreme court pick. They can only win by cheating." Both of those viewpoints have large elements of truth to them. This is not politics as usual -- this is a dirty fight to the death, between two mutually incompatible visions for the future of the United States. Neither side is going to "play fair". > "Reformed conservative thinker" Reversing polarity, would you call a former Democrat that now supports Trump a "reformed liberal"? Something tells me the answer is "no". People learn and change their views. Or the Overton Window shifts, and they find that their views puts them in a different camp. [1] Absentee and Mail-In Voting are different. Absentee voting assumes you have registered to vote for an upcoming election, and receive your ballot by mail. With mail-in voting, ballots are sent to all potential voters.
- bleepblorp 6y ago
  There is no element of truth whatsoever to the Republican view that Democrats engage in voter fraud. This has been a baseless Republican shibboleth for decades and it has been repeatedly investigated. Even those investigations tied closely enough to Republican politics to be vulnerable to motivated reasoning have found no evidence of systematic voter fraud[0]. And yet, the voter fraud narrative continues, in very large part because it justifies very well documented Republican electoral fraud schemes designed to restrict the democratic rights of demographics that do not vote Republican. Indeed, the GOP was under legal supervision for 35 years, until 2018, for systemic, organized, voter suppression strategies intended to tilt elections in its favor.[1] Freed of any supervision by the Supreme Court, the GOP is happily working to manipulate the vote in its favor in 2020[2][3][4][5]. Also: "Russia, if you're listening,"[6][7] is a clear case of violating democratic rules for partisan advantage. There is no equivalent history among modern Democrats after the post-civil rights realignment of the parties. As far as the legitimacy of the electoral college (and, for that matter, the Senate and the Supreme Court) is concerned, the United States was founded on the principles of no taxation without representation and that all men (in the language of the time) are created equal[8]. While it is within the GOP's constitutional right to fill the supreme court with conservative extremists, the practice disenfranchises the majority and subjects them to the rule (=taxation, among other things) of a minority that is hostile to both their interests, and, indeed, to their way of life. It is naive to expect that the creeping disenfranchisement of the majority of the population--in a country founded by launching a rebellion to end its own disenfranchisement--will pass quietly. This is not a both-sides bad issue. This is a contest between two mutually incompatible views of the United States: between a broad coalition that wants democratically-representative government and a narrow, but highly motivated, bloc that sees no value in democracy and is actively working to undermine it. [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/24/fbi-has-not-seen-evidence-of-widespread-voter-fraud-director-wray-tells-senators.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/24/fbi-has-not-seen-evidence-of... [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/01/the-gop-just-received-another-tool-for-suppressing-votes/550052/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/01/the-gop... [2] https://www.aclu.org/news/civil-liberties/block-the-vote-voter-suppression-in-2020/ https://www.aclu.org/news/civil-liberties/block-the-vote-vot... [3] https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/trump-campaign-2020-voter-suppression-consent-decree-1028988/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/trum... [4] https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/columnists/grieder/article/Grieder-Gov-Abbott-s-latest-ham-fisted-voter-15614946.php https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/columnists/grieder/art... [5] https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/01/politics/jacob-wohl-jack-burkman-voter-suppression-operation/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/01/politics/jacob-wohl-jack-burk... [6] https://www.justice.gov/storage/report.pdf https://www.justice.gov/storage/report.pdf [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mueller_report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mueller_report [8] Is civics education so bad that I really need to cite this?

abnercoimbre 6y ago

I finished David's latest book [0], and I've been trying to find the quote where he says if Trump wins without the popular vote again then that may cause the majority of Americans to "impose their will" on the nation regardless. Do you recall? I've been seeking to clarify his thoughts there. [0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/49205130-trumpocalypse?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=RWACEK4zTv&rank=2 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/49205130-trumpocalypse?a...

bleepblorp 6y ago
Sorry, I can't help as I haven't read that one yet.
- abnercoimbre 6y ago
  Thanks. Even though I'm on the left, I appreciate David's conservative writing and his policy solutions to prevent another Trump. I'm a little confused about the downvotes, but it seems you've been through worse.

donw 6y ago

> "If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. The will reject democracy." This is true on both sides of the political divide. The narrative from the Right is something like, "The Democrats are trying to steal the election with voter fraud, rioting to intimidate conservative voters, and last-minute changes to voting laws. We need to fight this by pushing Voter ID, for keeping the voting system as-is (either in-person or absentee, but no mail-in voting[1]), and seating our supreme court justice. They can only win by cheating." The narrative from the Left is something like, "The Republicans are trying to win by suppressing the popular vote. We need to fight this by expanding voting to as many people as possible, abolishing the Electoral College, and preventing the Republicans from seating their supreme court pick. They can only win by cheating." Both of those viewpoints have large elements of truth to them. This is not politics as usual -- this is a dirty fight to the death, between two mutually incompatible visions for the future of the United States. Neither side is going to "play fair". > "Reformed conservative thinker" Reversing polarity, would you call a former Democrat that now supports Trump a "reformed liberal"? Something tells me the answer is "no". People learn and change their views. Or the Overton Window shifts, and they find that their views puts them in a different camp. [1] Absentee and Mail-In Voting are different. Absentee voting assumes you have registered to vote for an upcoming election, and receive your ballot by mail. With mail-in voting, ballots are sent to all potential voters.

bleepblorp 6y ago
There is no element of truth whatsoever to the Republican view that Democrats engage in voter fraud. This has been a baseless Republican shibboleth for decades and it has been repeatedly investigated. Even those investigations tied closely enough to Republican politics to be vulnerable to motivated reasoning have found no evidence of systematic voter fraud[0]. And yet, the voter fraud narrative continues, in very large part because it justifies very well documented Republican electoral fraud schemes designed to restrict the democratic rights of demographics that do not vote Republican. Indeed, the GOP was under legal supervision for 35 years, until 2018, for systemic, organized, voter suppression strategies intended to tilt elections in its favor.[1] Freed of any supervision by the Supreme Court, the GOP is happily working to manipulate the vote in its favor in 2020[2][3][4][5]. Also: "Russia, if you're listening,"[6][7] is a clear case of violating democratic rules for partisan advantage. There is no equivalent history among modern Democrats after the post-civil rights realignment of the parties. As far as the legitimacy of the electoral college (and, for that matter, the Senate and the Supreme Court) is concerned, the United States was founded on the principles of no taxation without representation and that all men (in the language of the time) are created equal[8]. While it is within the GOP's constitutional right to fill the supreme court with conservative extremists, the practice disenfranchises the majority and subjects them to the rule (=taxation, among other things) of a minority that is hostile to both their interests, and, indeed, to their way of life. It is naive to expect that the creeping disenfranchisement of the majority of the population--in a country founded by launching a rebellion to end its own disenfranchisement--will pass quietly. This is not a both-sides bad issue. This is a contest between two mutually incompatible views of the United States: between a broad coalition that wants democratically-representative government and a narrow, but highly motivated, bloc that sees no value in democracy and is actively working to undermine it. [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/24/fbi-has-not-seen-evidence-of-widespread-voter-fraud-director-wray-tells-senators.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/24/fbi-has-not-seen-evidence-of... [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/01/the-gop-just-received-another-tool-for-suppressing-votes/550052/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/01/the-gop... [2] https://www.aclu.org/news/civil-liberties/block-the-vote-voter-suppression-in-2020/ https://www.aclu.org/news/civil-liberties/block-the-vote-vot... [3] https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/trump-campaign-2020-voter-suppression-consent-decree-1028988/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/trum... [4] https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/columnists/grieder/article/Grieder-Gov-Abbott-s-latest-ham-fisted-voter-15614946.php https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/columnists/grieder/art... [5] https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/01/politics/jacob-wohl-jack-burkman-voter-suppression-operation/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/01/politics/jacob-wohl-jack-burk... [6] https://www.justice.gov/storage/report.pdf https://www.justice.gov/storage/report.pdf [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mueller_report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mueller_report [8] Is civics education so bad that I really need to cite this?