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If the Reddit web server admins took availability seriously they would have chosen to deploy across more than one region. Do you disagree? Why do you disagree

If the Reddit web server admins took availability seriously they would have chosen to deploy across more than one region. Do you disagree? Why do you disagree? I'm being honest, no snark involved in my questions.

bad_user 16y ago
The whole point of AWS is to forget about maintaining hardware infrastructure. Amazon are the ones who should have made backups in multiple regions, and transfer the load on failure.
- edanm 16y ago
  "[S]hould" is the wrong word here. Clearly, they don't maintain such backups. This is clear to anyone using their service. They pay for the service anyway, so apparently it's still worth it to them, even without auto-backups. Would it make sense for Amazon to maintain automatic backups (and potentially charge more for them)? I don't know. It might make business sense, it might not. But their service is apparently popular enough even without it.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
- jasonkester 16y ago
  Actually, the whole point of AWS is to have options for using hardware that you don't own. They don't offer any magic "all your stuff in one package, guaranteed to work all the time" service. So yes, you do still need to think about your hardware infrastructure. You just don't have to own it. And Amazon does have all their stuff available in multiple regions. It's up to you to use it though.
- ayb 16y ago
  Not sure if I could say Amazon should be doing that - but I'd love it if other value added providers (such as Heroku) could implement this.
- ceejayoz 16y ago
  > The whole point of AWS is to forget about maintaining hardware infrastructure. If that were the case, you wouldn't be presented with region and availability zone options.
- JonnieCache 16y ago
  Then it would be much more expensive at the bottom tiers, meaning I wouldn't be able to play with it on a whim without thinking about the money. That would suck.
stef25 16y ago
Not qualified to speak about what Reddit should or should not do about the arrangement with Amazon. I have read several posts, including one by an (ex) Reddit employee saying Amazon is not delivering what they said they would, that much is clear. I really doubt all their downtime is part of the SLA.
dspillett 16y ago
He wasn't suggesting that all Reddit's problems are due to Amazon services, he was using Reddit's down time today as a data point illustrating that the uptime guarantee claimed for the service has not been kept this year (in fact a whole year's "permitted downtime" as implied by the 99.95% SLA may be eaten on one day). Presumably Amazon will be handing out some refunds and other compensation (assuming the SLA isn't of the toothless "it'll be up at least 99.95% of the time, unless it isn't" variety). Perhaps the Reddit admins decided that "up to 0.05%" downtime permitted by the SLA would be acceptable, compared to the extra expense of using more of Amazon's services (and any coding/testing time they may have needed to take advantage of the redundancy depending on how automatic the load balancing and/or failover are within Amazon's system) to improve their redundancy. By my understanding the promise isn't 99.95% if you use more than one of our locations, it is 99.95% at any one location, so the fact that Reddit don't make use of more than one location is irrelevant when talking about the one location they do use not meeting the expectations listed in the SLA. I'm not saying Reddit's implementation decision is right (I don't have the metrics available to make such a judgement) but it would have been made based partly on that 99.95% figure and how much they trusted Amazon's method of coming to that figure as a reliability they could guarantee. If I had paid money for a service with a 99.95% SLA, unless the SLA had no teeth, I would be expecting some redress at this point (though there is probably no use nagging Amazon about that right now: let them concentrate on fixing the problem and worry about explanations/blame/compo later once things are running again).
- trotsky 16y ago
  Very few cloud SLA's seem to have teeth to me. Amazon's SLA gives service credit equal to 10% of your total bill for the billing period if they blow past the 0.05%. This is a lot better than some cloud providers that will simply prorate the downtime, but pretty crappy in terms of actual business compensation. It's equivalent to a sales discount almost any organization with a sales staff could write without thinking about it - meaning Amazon is still making money on every customer even when they've blown past their SLA - assuming every single customer fills out the forms to apply for the discount. Hint: Many won't, see mail in rebates. A number of tier 1 network providers offer certain customers SLA's that are clearly in place to prove that they invest in redundancy and disaster planning. ex: less than 99.99% --> 10% credit. less than 99.90% --> no charges for the circuit in the billing period. This reflects an understanding that downtime can hurt your business/infrastructure far in excess of the measurable percentage.
jedberg 16y ago
> If the Reddit web server admins took availability seriously We do. > they would have chosen to deploy across more than one region. It's far too costly to do that. We are deployed across multiple AZs, but this failure hit multiple AZs.
- josephb 16y ago
  > but this failure hit multiple AZs. Gah! You can't always account for all the failure modes that Amazon might have.
  - asymptotic 16y ago
    This seems to be a prevalent misunderstanding. Amazon's EC2 SLA of 99.95% applies at the scope of a region. A region may contain more than one availability zone. Hence, deploying on multiple availability zones still only affords the 99.95% availability level. Yes, multi-region availability on AWS is hideously expensive. However, some organisations value an availability of greater than 99.95% enough to warrant such a multi-region deployment. Clearly reddit, and many, many other AWS users, do not. This isn't a value call on my part; I definitely couldn't afford the inter-region data transfer costs, all I know is that AWS offers you the tools to deploy high availability web services.
- jbellis 16y ago
  Why is it more expensive to deploy in zones X,Y in regions A,B than zones M,N in region C? I assume you don't just mean "US West is ~10% more expensive than US East."
  - jedberg 16y ago
    It's the combination of the extra cost of having machines in US West plus the cost of keeping the data synchronized between them (which is a lot) plus the added development overhead of making sure that things work cross region. We'll get there one day, but we aren't there yet.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
BrandonM 16y ago
Why does Reddit really need 99% availability? Is a customer unduly harmed or is the world even worse off if Reddit is down for a couple cumulative days per year? Is it worth the cost? Would you put up with more ads and/or pay for Reddit in order to make sure that it's available 24/7/365?
- ry0ohki 16y ago
  Probably not as much for the customer as for the company. When sites are unreliable, people end up going to the more reliable competitors as they arise.
  - shasta 16y ago
    I wouldn't think there a large number of customers deciding "this is too unreliable, I'm leaving" on the basis of a few hours of down time. On the other hand, there might be a large number of people who, upon finding your site down, decide to visit alternatives that are up at the time, and some of those people might decide they like the alternatives better.
  - scorpion032 16y ago
    If any site can take down time and not lose users, reddit can. And it has.

bad_user 16y ago

The whole point of AWS is to forget about maintaining hardware infrastructure. Amazon are the ones who should have made backups in multiple regions, and transfer the load on failure.

edanm 16y ago
"[S]hould" is the wrong word here. Clearly, they don't maintain such backups. This is clear to anyone using their service. They pay for the service anyway, so apparently it's still worth it to them, even without auto-backups. Would it make sense for Amazon to maintain automatic backups (and potentially charge more for them)? I don't know. It might make business sense, it might not. But their service is apparently popular enough even without it.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
jasonkester 16y ago
Actually, the whole point of AWS is to have options for using hardware that you don't own. They don't offer any magic "all your stuff in one package, guaranteed to work all the time" service. So yes, you do still need to think about your hardware infrastructure. You just don't have to own it. And Amazon does have all their stuff available in multiple regions. It's up to you to use it though.
ayb 16y ago
Not sure if I could say Amazon should be doing that - but I'd love it if other value added providers (such as Heroku) could implement this.
ceejayoz 16y ago
> The whole point of AWS is to forget about maintaining hardware infrastructure. If that were the case, you wouldn't be presented with region and availability zone options.
JonnieCache 16y ago
Then it would be much more expensive at the bottom tiers, meaning I wouldn't be able to play with it on a whim without thinking about the money. That would suck.

stef25 16y ago

Not qualified to speak about what Reddit should or should not do about the arrangement with Amazon. I have read several posts, including one by an (ex) Reddit employee saying Amazon is not delivering what they said they would, that much is clear. I really doubt all their downtime is part of the SLA.

dspillett 16y ago

He wasn't suggesting that all Reddit's problems are due to Amazon services, he was using Reddit's down time today as a data point illustrating that the uptime guarantee claimed for the service has not been kept this year (in fact a whole year's "permitted downtime" as implied by the 99.95% SLA may be eaten on one day). Presumably Amazon will be handing out some refunds and other compensation (assuming the SLA isn't of the toothless "it'll be up at least 99.95% of the time, unless it isn't" variety). Perhaps the Reddit admins decided that "up to 0.05%" downtime permitted by the SLA would be acceptable, compared to the extra expense of using more of Amazon's services (and any coding/testing time they may have needed to take advantage of the redundancy depending on how automatic the load balancing and/or failover are within Amazon's system) to improve their redundancy. By my understanding the promise isn't 99.95% if you use more than one of our locations, it is 99.95% at any one location, so the fact that Reddit don't make use of more than one location is irrelevant when talking about the one location they do use not meeting the expectations listed in the SLA. I'm not saying Reddit's implementation decision is right (I don't have the metrics available to make such a judgement) but it would have been made based partly on that 99.95% figure and how much they trusted Amazon's method of coming to that figure as a reliability they could guarantee. If I had paid money for a service with a 99.95% SLA, unless the SLA had no teeth, I would be expecting some redress at this point (though there is probably no use nagging Amazon about that right now: let them concentrate on fixing the problem and worry about explanations/blame/compo later once things are running again).

trotsky 16y ago
Very few cloud SLA's seem to have teeth to me. Amazon's SLA gives service credit equal to 10% of your total bill for the billing period if they blow past the 0.05%. This is a lot better than some cloud providers that will simply prorate the downtime, but pretty crappy in terms of actual business compensation. It's equivalent to a sales discount almost any organization with a sales staff could write without thinking about it - meaning Amazon is still making money on every customer even when they've blown past their SLA - assuming every single customer fills out the forms to apply for the discount. Hint: Many won't, see mail in rebates. A number of tier 1 network providers offer certain customers SLA's that are clearly in place to prove that they invest in redundancy and disaster planning. ex: less than 99.99% --> 10% credit. less than 99.90% --> no charges for the circuit in the billing period. This reflects an understanding that downtime can hurt your business/infrastructure far in excess of the measurable percentage.

jedberg 16y ago

> If the Reddit web server admins took availability seriously We do. > they would have chosen to deploy across more than one region. It's far too costly to do that. We are deployed across multiple AZs, but this failure hit multiple AZs.

josephb 16y ago
> but this failure hit multiple AZs. Gah! You can't always account for all the failure modes that Amazon might have.
- asymptotic 16y ago
  This seems to be a prevalent misunderstanding. Amazon's EC2 SLA of 99.95% applies at the scope of a region. A region may contain more than one availability zone. Hence, deploying on multiple availability zones still only affords the 99.95% availability level. Yes, multi-region availability on AWS is hideously expensive. However, some organisations value an availability of greater than 99.95% enough to warrant such a multi-region deployment. Clearly reddit, and many, many other AWS users, do not. This isn't a value call on my part; I definitely couldn't afford the inter-region data transfer costs, all I know is that AWS offers you the tools to deploy high availability web services.
jbellis 16y ago
Why is it more expensive to deploy in zones X,Y in regions A,B than zones M,N in region C? I assume you don't just mean "US West is ~10% more expensive than US East."
- jedberg 16y ago
  It's the combination of the extra cost of having machines in US West plus the cost of keeping the data synchronized between them (which is a lot) plus the added development overhead of making sure that things work cross region. We'll get there one day, but we aren't there yet.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

BrandonM 16y ago

Why does Reddit really need 99% availability? Is a customer unduly harmed or is the world even worse off if Reddit is down for a couple cumulative days per year? Is it worth the cost? Would you put up with more ads and/or pay for Reddit in order to make sure that it's available 24/7/365?

ry0ohki 16y ago
Probably not as much for the customer as for the company. When sites are unreliable, people end up going to the more reliable competitors as they arise.
- shasta 16y ago
  I wouldn't think there a large number of customers deciding "this is too unreliable, I'm leaving" on the basis of a few hours of down time. On the other hand, there might be a large number of people who, upon finding your site down, decide to visit alternatives that are up at the time, and some of those people might decide they like the alternatives better.
- scorpion032 16y ago
  If any site can take down time and not lose users, reddit can. And it has.