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I feel like rather than pitting immigrants against native born workers, and trying to come up with the perfect arcane rule, we should have sectoral bargaining w

by notJim 6y ago

I feel like rather than pitting immigrants against native born workers, and trying to come up with the perfect arcane rule, we should have sectoral bargaining where the workers could negotiate pay standards directly with their employers. Then it wouldn't matter where someone is from, because they'd be covered by that contract, and the government could get out of the way of the labor market.

kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
What is this even supposed to mean? We already have bargaining between workers and employees. When you have a larger labor pool, market forces will obviously shift the market towards lower wages in the absence of government intervention. People who oppose H1B oppose it because they think that foreign workers should not be allowed to enter the labor pool thereby depressing the wages.
- sudosteph 6y ago
  Pretty sure that comment was in reference to syndicalism - a theory of government where worker-controlled unions would have leverage over laws that relate to their domain... But that hasn't been a relevant system of anything since Revolutionary Catalonia was a thing in the 1930s. (disclaimer, I actually love syndicalism as a concept. In an ideal world, syndicalism could ensure that naive and bought-out politicians wouldn't be able to arbitrarily outlaw encryption - because laws which relate to technology would be in the domain of people who actually work on technology. But like so many systems that sound nice in an ideal world - getting there and making it non-corrupt would be no minor feat).
- notJim 6y ago
  I'm referring to sectoral bargaining where workers negotiate sector wide for things like wages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectoral_collective_bargaining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectoral_collective_bargaining. I was thinking of how Nordic countries don't have minimum wages because the unions prefer to negotiate directly with the employers. The bargaining you refer to is between an individual employee and an employer, where the employer obviously has drastically more power, particularly in the case of immigrants on visas. Even having a single-company union would be beneficial, but the problematic companies here would just be non-union shops. The point of sectoral bargaining is exactly what the H1B system is trying to accomplish, where you establish wage guidelines for the whole sector to prevent companies from undercutting wages with immigration. Except that because the government has to make this one-size-fits-all rule, and doesn't understand the specific needs of each sector, it's hard to come up with the right rule. Under sectoral bargaining, each sector could determine its own needs and goals, and because companies and employees each have representatives, the end result is fairer for all.
sudosteph 6y ago
_Stop trying to make syndicalism happen! It's not going to happen._ But seriously, I love the theories behind systems like that, but practically it's not something like that will hold in the US any time soon. Unions are still a hard sell to most folks. And that's exactly what you need to make that happen. Semi-related: the effects that cheap H1Bs and H1B subcontractors might have on unionization efforts sounds like a fascinating topic.
- notJim 6y ago
  Since this seems like something you're interested in, check out my other comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24711219 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24711219 I agree none of this is likely, but we can make the world whatever we want, so let's start thinking about it :)

by notJim 6y ago

kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago

What is this even supposed to mean? We already have bargaining between workers and employees. When you have a larger labor pool, market forces will obviously shift the market towards lower wages in the absence of government intervention. People who oppose H1B oppose it because they think that foreign workers should not be allowed to enter the labor pool thereby depressing the wages.

sudosteph 6y ago
Pretty sure that comment was in reference to syndicalism - a theory of government where worker-controlled unions would have leverage over laws that relate to their domain... But that hasn't been a relevant system of anything since Revolutionary Catalonia was a thing in the 1930s. (disclaimer, I actually love syndicalism as a concept. In an ideal world, syndicalism could ensure that naive and bought-out politicians wouldn't be able to arbitrarily outlaw encryption - because laws which relate to technology would be in the domain of people who actually work on technology. But like so many systems that sound nice in an ideal world - getting there and making it non-corrupt would be no minor feat).
notJim 6y ago
I'm referring to sectoral bargaining where workers negotiate sector wide for things like wages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectoral_collective_bargaining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectoral_collective_bargaining. I was thinking of how Nordic countries don't have minimum wages because the unions prefer to negotiate directly with the employers. The bargaining you refer to is between an individual employee and an employer, where the employer obviously has drastically more power, particularly in the case of immigrants on visas. Even having a single-company union would be beneficial, but the problematic companies here would just be non-union shops. The point of sectoral bargaining is exactly what the H1B system is trying to accomplish, where you establish wage guidelines for the whole sector to prevent companies from undercutting wages with immigration. Except that because the government has to make this one-size-fits-all rule, and doesn't understand the specific needs of each sector, it's hard to come up with the right rule. Under sectoral bargaining, each sector could determine its own needs and goals, and because companies and employees each have representatives, the end result is fairer for all.

sudosteph 6y ago

_Stop trying to make syndicalism happen! It's not going to happen._ But seriously, I love the theories behind systems like that, but practically it's not something like that will hold in the US any time soon. Unions are still a hard sell to most folks. And that's exactly what you need to make that happen. Semi-related: the effects that cheap H1Bs and H1B subcontractors might have on unionization efforts sounds like a fascinating topic.

notJim 6y ago
Since this seems like something you're interested in, check out my other comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24711219 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24711219 I agree none of this is likely, but we can make the world whatever we want, so let's start thinking about it :)