17 ms·

This is right. The answer that's best for the economy is to allow more immigration, not less (especially skilled immigration). This move will just make it more

This is right. The answer that's best for the economy is to allow more immigration, not less (especially skilled immigration). This move will just make it more dificult for the average company to sponsor H1B workers

mc32 6y ago
Why not make companies sponsor underprivileged kids who need the opportunity just as much but don’t get as much consideration?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- rbultje 6y ago
  Because educating underprivileged kids takes up to 20 years(school, college, potential post-grad studies), whereas the H1B worker can start immediately. H1B workers also typically have several years experience in the specific position where they're being considered. You need both.
  - mc32 6y ago
    Some H1Bs are talented, many, many copy paste. Yes it takes years to develop talent. It’s not easy. But these are the same companies who throw money to the wind for the purpose of empty virtue signaling and making some connected politicos happy. Why not devote that money to real causes that actually provide hope for kids rather than fill the pockets of people who know how to shake corps down?
- bufferoverflow 6y ago
  Start a company and see how much it costs to sponsor some uneducated kid. You have good intentions towards the kids, but some communist intentions towards business owners. Let them decide how to spend their money. It's their money.
  - phonebanshee 6y ago
    Businesses should have the expectation that they can hire zero H1B workers. The suggestion is that they do something in exchange for that privilege.
    - bufferoverflow 6y ago
      Not being able to hire H1B workers is a privilege?
- acituan 6y ago
  Because a good chunk of immigrants are underpriviliged kids of the world, when you compare the GDP levels of their home countries to the US. That and US doesn’t need to pay a dime for them developing their skills while getting to skim the cream of the crop.
  - mc32 6y ago
    It’s not the responsibility of the US govt, companies or people to underwrite other countries’ underprivileged people when we have our own we fail to care for well enough. We had a revolution and a civil war and unrest to fix our own failures. They can work to improve their own self determination. Look, Panama 25 years ago was a basket case. But now they are one of the better economies of the southern cone.
    - acituan 6y ago
      > we have our own we fail to care for well enough. Tell me more of this “our own”. 25% of the current US population is either 1st or 2nd gen immigrants arrived after immigration reform of 1965. They include the innovators, laborers, entrepreneurs, researchers that pay a lot for your “our own”. Can’t eat the cake and have it too.
      - mc32 6y ago
        Yes first or second generation Americans (or long established Americans) don’t owe anyone else any responsibility. They only owe their descendants and fellow Americans here. They don’t owe non descendants elsewhere anything. It’s not like they can go back to their grandparents country and say hey, remember my grandparents, they were from here, I need help, help me out over here!
        kelnos 6y ago
        > It’s not like they can go back to their grandparents country and say hey, remember my grandparents, they were from here, I need help, help me out over here! That's not entirely true everywhere though. For example, I was born in the US, as were my parents and grandparents. My great-grandparents immigrated from Italy, and if I can gather the proper documentation, I'm eligible for Italian citizenship. If I ever get this done, then yes, I could indeed go back to my great-grandparents' country and do what you suggest is silly. I believe quite a few other countries also have policies like this.
booleandilemma 6y ago
Serious question: wouldn’t that be leaving less jobs open for Americans? As an American myself, I want to see my fellow Americans getting good jobs over people from other countries.
- nrmitchi 6y ago
  I'm not an American, but I fully understand your point. Let me provide some background. If you already know this, my apologies. The process of getting an H1B is not the employer picking up the phone and ordering "1 H1B for delivery please". It involves applying at the beginning of April, being entered into a lottery, and you find out if you "won" (and your application is looked at) around the end of March. IIRC it is ~30% that your application is even looked at. At this point, you're out legal and processing fees (at least a couple thousand), and likely more if USCIS wants more evidence that the position qualifies, or that the individual being sponsored is eligible. As a side note, this is often why job descriptions have degree requirements and such, even if they will hire people without a degree. If a similar job at the same company doesn't "need" a degree, it will be much more difficult to get a work status for, even if the requirement bar is actually quite high. After this, assuming you actually get your status, you don't "get" it until the beginning of October. It's now cost your employer 6 months of lead time, a legal process, thousands of dollars, and uncertainty throughout to know if they even _could_ hire someone. It is not _easy_ to get an H1B. If you have 2 equally qualified people, who will make the same amount of money (which is what market rates are, see my initial suggestion above), then any reasonable employer is going to go with the candidate that they can hire the next week, rather than going through the H1B process.
  - claudeganon 6y ago
    > then any reasonable employer is going to go with the candidate that they can hire the next week, rather than going through the H1B process. Except in industries that have high turnover, like technology and fashion. There, H1Bs are abused by companies who don’t want to compete for talent at market rates and instead can lock in foreign workers. It makes more sense to hire the foreign worker specifically because they can prevent them from leaving. Illegal threats and intimidation of H1B workers are more common than you think.
4763382973 6y ago
Low skill immigration hurts the poor. When economists talk about it having a neutral impact they are referring to 4-5 year time scales which is different from having zero consequences. Most poor people are not in a comfortable enough position for it to be ethical to tell them "just deal with it" without offering some kind of support.
dartdartdart 6y ago
I agree, American is built on the hard work of immigrants. We need to allow more immigrants, especially highly skilled workers
- ajsnigrutin 6y ago
  Don't you have high unemployment at the moment? The right solution would be, to require high wages for H1B visas - if you're hiring a developer, the minimum wage for the H1B worker should be (eg.) 1.5x average developer wage in that area/state. This would solve companies firing local workers and replacing then with H1B workers, and still solve the problem of a company 'really needing' that one worker.
- sudosteph 6y ago
  Maybe this comes off as too negative: but that "America is built on the hard work of immigrants" meme is an absolutely tone-deaf talking point. Many people hear hear that phrase, and immediately assume you are not arguing in good faith. Yes, immigrants built America. But so did enslaved people. So did natives. So did rebellious colonists of the British empire. Most of those people did not consider themselves immigrants - and nor do their descendants. Many immigrants have contributed amazing things to our nation, and they still do. But immigrants as a group are not a monolith. Many of the "highly skilled workers" that come over on H1Bs, are frankly - not highly skilled workers. Many are semi-skilled workers who are preferred over qualified Americans because they work for low wages and nearly never quit when abused. Americans have a right to say that we don't want our immigration system used as a tool to devalue working conditions - something which affects all of us. If we can solve this problem first, then we can talk about allowing in more immigrants. But it's absurd to say to reduce this to "immigrants = good = America". Not when we know the current system is abusive to both immigrants, and to the Americans who are part of the toxic workplaces that the H1B visa-mill paradigm has created.
  - kelnos 6y ago
    > Americans have a right to say that we don't want our immigration system used as a tool to devalue working conditions - something which affects all of us. Agreed! > If we can solve this problem first, then we can talk about allowing in more immigrants. This is really just not a hard problem at all to solve from a policy perspective. Political will has been a big problem; both parties have campaigned on comprehensive immigration reform, but nothing has materialized. Corporations with political influence love the status quo as it allows them to import workers for similar or lower wages who can't quit or do anything that would risk them losing their job without being sent home.
xt00 6y ago
An important dynamic very little talked about is the fact that in the majority of industrialized countries within a very short time populations will be decreasing. The battle of the future will be who can bring in a continual stream of people to keep the economy growing. So various countries will likely be battling for highly skilled workers in the future. So the challenge with more immigration is that you have to have some robust level of job creation and growth for the existing people in the country because otherwise you will have a combination of a broken system (people come to the country and get a job, but then their kids never get jobs, or they lose their job and cant get another one), or people will resent the people who are getting jobs, or people will come to the country and then end up leaving. So lots of bad outcomes if you don't actually set things up in a good way. Countries like Germany have a really strong system of vocational jobs, apprenticeships, career ladders, etc so there is a sense that the local people have some career trajectory, so somebody else having some level of success after arriving in their country is not bothering them. Of course that's not universally true, but definitely people will be resentful in a particular area if tons of new people show up and have tons of success while they struggle to get off square one..

mc32 6y ago

Why not make companies sponsor underprivileged kids who need the opportunity just as much but don’t get as much consideration?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
rbultje 6y ago
Because educating underprivileged kids takes up to 20 years(school, college, potential post-grad studies), whereas the H1B worker can start immediately. H1B workers also typically have several years experience in the specific position where they're being considered. You need both.
- mc32 6y ago
  Some H1Bs are talented, many, many copy paste. Yes it takes years to develop talent. It’s not easy. But these are the same companies who throw money to the wind for the purpose of empty virtue signaling and making some connected politicos happy. Why not devote that money to real causes that actually provide hope for kids rather than fill the pockets of people who know how to shake corps down?
bufferoverflow 6y ago
Start a company and see how much it costs to sponsor some uneducated kid. You have good intentions towards the kids, but some communist intentions towards business owners. Let them decide how to spend their money. It's their money.
- phonebanshee 6y ago
  Businesses should have the expectation that they can hire zero H1B workers. The suggestion is that they do something in exchange for that privilege.
  - bufferoverflow 6y ago
    Not being able to hire H1B workers is a privilege?
acituan 6y ago
Because a good chunk of immigrants are underpriviliged kids of the world, when you compare the GDP levels of their home countries to the US. That and US doesn’t need to pay a dime for them developing their skills while getting to skim the cream of the crop.
- mc32 6y ago
  It’s not the responsibility of the US govt, companies or people to underwrite other countries’ underprivileged people when we have our own we fail to care for well enough. We had a revolution and a civil war and unrest to fix our own failures. They can work to improve their own self determination. Look, Panama 25 years ago was a basket case. But now they are one of the better economies of the southern cone.
  - acituan 6y ago
    > we have our own we fail to care for well enough. Tell me more of this “our own”. 25% of the current US population is either 1st or 2nd gen immigrants arrived after immigration reform of 1965. They include the innovators, laborers, entrepreneurs, researchers that pay a lot for your “our own”. Can’t eat the cake and have it too.
    - mc32 6y ago
      Yes first or second generation Americans (or long established Americans) don’t owe anyone else any responsibility. They only owe their descendants and fellow Americans here. They don’t owe non descendants elsewhere anything. It’s not like they can go back to their grandparents country and say hey, remember my grandparents, they were from here, I need help, help me out over here!
      - kelnos 6y ago
        > It’s not like they can go back to their grandparents country and say hey, remember my grandparents, they were from here, I need help, help me out over here! That's not entirely true everywhere though. For example, I was born in the US, as were my parents and grandparents. My great-grandparents immigrated from Italy, and if I can gather the proper documentation, I'm eligible for Italian citizenship. If I ever get this done, then yes, I could indeed go back to my great-grandparents' country and do what you suggest is silly. I believe quite a few other countries also have policies like this.

booleandilemma 6y ago

Serious question: wouldn’t that be leaving less jobs open for Americans? As an American myself, I want to see my fellow Americans getting good jobs over people from other countries.

nrmitchi 6y ago
I'm not an American, but I fully understand your point. Let me provide some background. If you already know this, my apologies. The process of getting an H1B is not the employer picking up the phone and ordering "1 H1B for delivery please". It involves applying at the beginning of April, being entered into a lottery, and you find out if you "won" (and your application is looked at) around the end of March. IIRC it is ~30% that your application is even looked at. At this point, you're out legal and processing fees (at least a couple thousand), and likely more if USCIS wants more evidence that the position qualifies, or that the individual being sponsored is eligible. As a side note, this is often why job descriptions have degree requirements and such, even if they will hire people without a degree. If a similar job at the same company doesn't "need" a degree, it will be much more difficult to get a work status for, even if the requirement bar is actually quite high. After this, assuming you actually get your status, you don't "get" it until the beginning of October. It's now cost your employer 6 months of lead time, a legal process, thousands of dollars, and uncertainty throughout to know if they even _could_ hire someone. It is not _easy_ to get an H1B. If you have 2 equally qualified people, who will make the same amount of money (which is what market rates are, see my initial suggestion above), then any reasonable employer is going to go with the candidate that they can hire the next week, rather than going through the H1B process.
- claudeganon 6y ago
  > then any reasonable employer is going to go with the candidate that they can hire the next week, rather than going through the H1B process. Except in industries that have high turnover, like technology and fashion. There, H1Bs are abused by companies who don’t want to compete for talent at market rates and instead can lock in foreign workers. It makes more sense to hire the foreign worker specifically because they can prevent them from leaving. Illegal threats and intimidation of H1B workers are more common than you think.

4763382973 6y ago

Low skill immigration hurts the poor. When economists talk about it having a neutral impact they are referring to 4-5 year time scales which is different from having zero consequences. Most poor people are not in a comfortable enough position for it to be ethical to tell them "just deal with it" without offering some kind of support.

dartdartdart 6y ago

I agree, American is built on the hard work of immigrants. We need to allow more immigrants, especially highly skilled workers

ajsnigrutin 6y ago
Don't you have high unemployment at the moment? The right solution would be, to require high wages for H1B visas - if you're hiring a developer, the minimum wage for the H1B worker should be (eg.) 1.5x average developer wage in that area/state. This would solve companies firing local workers and replacing then with H1B workers, and still solve the problem of a company 'really needing' that one worker.
sudosteph 6y ago
Maybe this comes off as too negative: but that "America is built on the hard work of immigrants" meme is an absolutely tone-deaf talking point. Many people hear hear that phrase, and immediately assume you are not arguing in good faith. Yes, immigrants built America. But so did enslaved people. So did natives. So did rebellious colonists of the British empire. Most of those people did not consider themselves immigrants - and nor do their descendants. Many immigrants have contributed amazing things to our nation, and they still do. But immigrants as a group are not a monolith. Many of the "highly skilled workers" that come over on H1Bs, are frankly - not highly skilled workers. Many are semi-skilled workers who are preferred over qualified Americans because they work for low wages and nearly never quit when abused. Americans have a right to say that we don't want our immigration system used as a tool to devalue working conditions - something which affects all of us. If we can solve this problem first, then we can talk about allowing in more immigrants. But it's absurd to say to reduce this to "immigrants = good = America". Not when we know the current system is abusive to both immigrants, and to the Americans who are part of the toxic workplaces that the H1B visa-mill paradigm has created.
- kelnos 6y ago
  > Americans have a right to say that we don't want our immigration system used as a tool to devalue working conditions - something which affects all of us. Agreed! > If we can solve this problem first, then we can talk about allowing in more immigrants. This is really just not a hard problem at all to solve from a policy perspective. Political will has been a big problem; both parties have campaigned on comprehensive immigration reform, but nothing has materialized. Corporations with political influence love the status quo as it allows them to import workers for similar or lower wages who can't quit or do anything that would risk them losing their job without being sent home.

xt00 6y ago

An important dynamic very little talked about is the fact that in the majority of industrialized countries within a very short time populations will be decreasing. The battle of the future will be who can bring in a continual stream of people to keep the economy growing. So various countries will likely be battling for highly skilled workers in the future. So the challenge with more immigration is that you have to have some robust level of job creation and growth for the existing people in the country because otherwise you will have a combination of a broken system (people come to the country and get a job, but then their kids never get jobs, or they lose their job and cant get another one), or people will resent the people who are getting jobs, or people will come to the country and then end up leaving. So lots of bad outcomes if you don't actually set things up in a good way. Countries like Germany have a really strong system of vocational jobs, apprenticeships, career ladders, etc so there is a sense that the local people have some career trajectory, so somebody else having some level of success after arriving in their country is not bothering them. Of course that's not universally true, but definitely people will be resentful in a particular area if tons of new people show up and have tons of success while they struggle to get off square one..