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That’s like comparing a turn table used for DJ’ing to a record player used to just listen to records. Completely different application, accessories, and techni

That’s like comparing a turn table used for DJ’ing to a record player used to just listen to records. Completely different application, accessories, and technique.

mhh__ 6y ago
Perhaps, but modern decks have lots of features that record players don't have like effects and EQ. In this case the patented device is basically played in the same way (or can be) just in a different place. It's intended to be for tapping but that's a common pedal steel technique
- caseyohara 6y ago
  This is really pedantic, but even in a modern DJ setup the effects and EQ are part of the mixer, not the turntable. The mixer is separate from the turntables, it's the thing with the knobs and faders usually between two turntables. Even modern DJ turntables are still very, very basic: https://www.technics.com/us/products/dj-series/direct-drive-turntable-system-sl-1200mk7.html https://www.technics.com/us/products/dj-series/direct-drive-... They are just more rugged than your everyday home listening record player.
  - vict00ms 6y ago
    Your pedantry is outdated: there are Serato-compatible decks that have MIDI pads built into them, not everything is trying to mimic the SL-1200s aesthetic these days.
- lilSebastian 6y ago
  Decks have neither of the examples you claim. Are you confusing an deck with a mixer, sometimes referred to as a mixing desk (though incorrectly)?
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    https://www.pioneerdj.com/en-gb/product/controller/ddj-400/black/overview/ https://www.pioneerdj.com/en-gb/product/controller/ddj-400/b...
    - caseyohara 6y ago
      That's not a record player though, that's a DJ controller. Very different.
      - mhh__ 6y ago
        The parent comment was comparing DJ equipment to a record player (to this patent), which I feel is a poor example because modern DJ equipment almost always has different equipment too rather even if you could technically do it with a fader and some record players (as in at a gig, I'm aware people still mix on vinyl - pretentious as it can be). The patented guitar thing is literally played the same way but in a different place, which I think should really be considered prior art unless the fashion aspect is considered rather than purely functionality.
        quinndiggity 6y ago
        your comment said "decks" though - the ddj1000 is _closer_ to decks, but it's still a controller. decks, you're thinking (some examples): cdj350 cdj400 cdj800 cdj850 cdj900 cdj1000 cdj2000 xdj1000 etc
        quinndiggity 6y ago
        I think part of the reason people are chiming in on the distinction is that a controller is comparable to a mouse for a computer; a controller requires something else for any functionality, at which point you're comparing a general computing device that can do anything to a much more restricted special use device
      - quinndiggity 6y ago
        this guy mixes
- lillesvin 6y ago
  > It's intended to be for tapping but that's a common pedal steel technique I have no idea about how to play pedal steel (but I do play guitar), I thought the string action was way too high on a pedal/lap steel steel to be able to tap on it?
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    I don't own one but I have done some tapping on one in the back of a music shop, so you might be right on average?
  - beaugunderson 6y ago
    Correct, the action on a pedal steel is very high (so high that you'd probably break strings if you managed to bend one to the "fretboard") and played with a bar.
jjulius 6y ago
Not really. The patent just takes the guitar and stabilizes it in a horizontal position, instead of a vertical position, allowing you to do something different with the same instrument. Nothing about the guitar itself changes whatsoever, but the orientation provides for the guitar to be used differently. The better analogy would be, say, if you took an SL-1200 (a turntable manufactured for DJ'ing) and it rotated it "battle style" - same instrument, same accessories, but a different orientation resulting in a fundamentally different use of the device.
- crmd 6y ago
  I’m not a fan of battle style but is it really fundamentally different? Eddie’s patent is more like rotating the deck about the z axis and holding it like a guitar. Which would be pretty cool and ridiculous come to think of it :-)
  - munificent 6y ago
    > I’m not a fan of battle style but is it really fundamentally different? It gets the tone arm out of the way, which is what makes scratching a lot more feasible.
    - jjulius 6y ago
      That, and the footprint of a setup is reduced when decks are placed battle style. This is important because turntablism requires a lot of very quick manipulation of both decks and mixer, and it's easier to do this if everything is a lot more compact. That's also why you typically see turntablists using a simple, small two-channel mixer while other DJs tend to employ wider, bulkier 4+-channel mixers. To OP's point I could've maybe dropped the word "fundamentally" in my post because at the end of the day the fundamentals remain the same, as do the fundamentals of the guitar in the patent vs regular use.
  - paljasma 6y ago
    It is possible to scratch the sl-1200/sl-1210 at 90 degree angle and at 180 degree angle, by Dj Marky: https://youtu.be/wA5b_AOjrI8 https://youtu.be/wA5b_AOjrI8 https://youtu.be/6z63irhX6Qs https://youtu.be/6z63irhX6Qs
leptons 6y ago
The analogy does not hold up. There are quite a lot of differences between a "pedal steel" guitar, and an electric guitar. First, electric guitars do not have pedals. Pedal steel guitars do not have a resonating wood body. They produce very different sounds in very different ways.
- gumby 6y ago
  Of course they do but the description described "techniques"; he's talking about a horizontal guitar play style. As my comment said I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the patent itself (and really the claims are the thing) just saying that that part of the description is probably wrong. And that the patent system doesn't care. FWIW all the pedal steel guitars I've ever seen are in fact electric guitars... but I know what you meant.
  - hanklazard 6y ago
    From the image, it looks like it’s intended to be used specifically for two-handed tapping, which was made famous by Van Halen and not commonly used (or at all) in pedal steel playing. Not sure if that would be unique enough to qualify for patent or not. https://youtu.be/z_lwocmL9dQ https://youtu.be/z_lwocmL9dQ
    - Exmoor 6y ago
      To my knowledge, steel guitars typically don't even have frets, so it would be essentially impossible.
  - sheriff 6y ago
    I play both guitar and pedal steel. The tapping techniques that would be used on a horizontal 6-string guitar would be impractical on a steel guitar (lap or pedal) because the action is too high and there are no frets.
sneak 6y ago
I don’t think that’s true at all. The standard DJ turntable (SL-1200/1210) has no specific features for DJing. I use the exact same ones for “just listen[ing] to records”. Can’t speak to guitars or pedal steel, though.

That’s like comparing a turn table used for DJ’ing to a record player used to just listen to records. Completely different application, accessories, and technique.

mhh__ 6y ago

Perhaps, but modern decks have lots of features that record players don't have like effects and EQ. In this case the patented device is basically played in the same way (or can be) just in a different place. It's intended to be for tapping but that's a common pedal steel technique

caseyohara 6y ago
This is really pedantic, but even in a modern DJ setup the effects and EQ are part of the mixer, not the turntable. The mixer is separate from the turntables, it's the thing with the knobs and faders usually between two turntables. Even modern DJ turntables are still very, very basic: https://www.technics.com/us/products/dj-series/direct-drive-turntable-system-sl-1200mk7.html https://www.technics.com/us/products/dj-series/direct-drive-... They are just more rugged than your everyday home listening record player.
- vict00ms 6y ago
  Your pedantry is outdated: there are Serato-compatible decks that have MIDI pads built into them, not everything is trying to mimic the SL-1200s aesthetic these days.
lilSebastian 6y ago
Decks have neither of the examples you claim. Are you confusing an deck with a mixer, sometimes referred to as a mixing desk (though incorrectly)?
- mhh__ 6y ago
  https://www.pioneerdj.com/en-gb/product/controller/ddj-400/black/overview/ https://www.pioneerdj.com/en-gb/product/controller/ddj-400/b...
  - caseyohara 6y ago
    That's not a record player though, that's a DJ controller. Very different.
    - mhh__ 6y ago
      The parent comment was comparing DJ equipment to a record player (to this patent), which I feel is a poor example because modern DJ equipment almost always has different equipment too rather even if you could technically do it with a fader and some record players (as in at a gig, I'm aware people still mix on vinyl - pretentious as it can be). The patented guitar thing is literally played the same way but in a different place, which I think should really be considered prior art unless the fashion aspect is considered rather than purely functionality.
      - quinndiggity 6y ago
        your comment said "decks" though - the ddj1000 is _closer_ to decks, but it's still a controller. decks, you're thinking (some examples): cdj350 cdj400 cdj800 cdj850 cdj900 cdj1000 cdj2000 xdj1000 etc
      - quinndiggity 6y ago
        I think part of the reason people are chiming in on the distinction is that a controller is comparable to a mouse for a computer; a controller requires something else for any functionality, at which point you're comparing a general computing device that can do anything to a much more restricted special use device
    - quinndiggity 6y ago
      this guy mixes
lillesvin 6y ago
> It's intended to be for tapping but that's a common pedal steel technique I have no idea about how to play pedal steel (but I do play guitar), I thought the string action was way too high on a pedal/lap steel steel to be able to tap on it?
- mhh__ 6y ago
  I don't own one but I have done some tapping on one in the back of a music shop, so you might be right on average?
- beaugunderson 6y ago
  Correct, the action on a pedal steel is very high (so high that you'd probably break strings if you managed to bend one to the "fretboard") and played with a bar.

jjulius 6y ago

Not really. The patent just takes the guitar and stabilizes it in a horizontal position, instead of a vertical position, allowing you to do something different with the same instrument. Nothing about the guitar itself changes whatsoever, but the orientation provides for the guitar to be used differently. The better analogy would be, say, if you took an SL-1200 (a turntable manufactured for DJ'ing) and it rotated it "battle style" - same instrument, same accessories, but a different orientation resulting in a fundamentally different use of the device.

crmd 6y ago
I’m not a fan of battle style but is it really fundamentally different? Eddie’s patent is more like rotating the deck about the z axis and holding it like a guitar. Which would be pretty cool and ridiculous come to think of it :-)
- munificent 6y ago
  > I’m not a fan of battle style but is it really fundamentally different? It gets the tone arm out of the way, which is what makes scratching a lot more feasible.
  - jjulius 6y ago
    That, and the footprint of a setup is reduced when decks are placed battle style. This is important because turntablism requires a lot of very quick manipulation of both decks and mixer, and it's easier to do this if everything is a lot more compact. That's also why you typically see turntablists using a simple, small two-channel mixer while other DJs tend to employ wider, bulkier 4+-channel mixers. To OP's point I could've maybe dropped the word "fundamentally" in my post because at the end of the day the fundamentals remain the same, as do the fundamentals of the guitar in the patent vs regular use.
- paljasma 6y ago
  It is possible to scratch the sl-1200/sl-1210 at 90 degree angle and at 180 degree angle, by Dj Marky: https://youtu.be/wA5b_AOjrI8 https://youtu.be/wA5b_AOjrI8 https://youtu.be/6z63irhX6Qs https://youtu.be/6z63irhX6Qs

leptons 6y ago

The analogy does not hold up. There are quite a lot of differences between a "pedal steel" guitar, and an electric guitar. First, electric guitars do not have pedals. Pedal steel guitars do not have a resonating wood body. They produce very different sounds in very different ways.

gumby 6y ago
Of course they do but the description described "techniques"; he's talking about a horizontal guitar play style. As my comment said I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the patent itself (and really the claims are the thing) just saying that that part of the description is probably wrong. And that the patent system doesn't care. FWIW all the pedal steel guitars I've ever seen are in fact electric guitars... but I know what you meant.
- hanklazard 6y ago
  From the image, it looks like it’s intended to be used specifically for two-handed tapping, which was made famous by Van Halen and not commonly used (or at all) in pedal steel playing. Not sure if that would be unique enough to qualify for patent or not. https://youtu.be/z_lwocmL9dQ https://youtu.be/z_lwocmL9dQ
  - Exmoor 6y ago
    To my knowledge, steel guitars typically don't even have frets, so it would be essentially impossible.
- sheriff 6y ago
  I play both guitar and pedal steel. The tapping techniques that would be used on a horizontal 6-string guitar would be impractical on a steel guitar (lap or pedal) because the action is too high and there are no frets.

sneak 6y ago

I don’t think that’s true at all. The standard DJ turntable (SL-1200/1210) has no specific features for DJing. I use the exact same ones for “just listen[ing] to records”. Can’t speak to guitars or pedal steel, though.