4 ms·

Sounds like a myth to me. Humans were at the top of the food chain even before farming. Relying on what can be foraged/hunted would keep the human population

Sounds like a myth to me. Humans were at the top of the food chain even before farming. Relying on what can be foraged/hunted would keep the human population in check instead of being propped up by agriculture -- and all the problems that brings.

int_19h 6y ago
It would also keep the human population dying young because of easily preventable (by an industrial civilization) diseases, or just plain starvation.
- samatman 6y ago
  Can't forget raiding, slavery, and cannibalism!
  - chillwaves 6y ago
    Any proof that cannibalism was prevalent in preagricultural era, or are you just dropping in some more mythology? Also there are more slaves in absolute terms today than at any other time. Not sure what agriculture and messing with ecosystems has to do with the human urge to enslave and kill each other.
    - simonh 6y ago
      We have copious evidence of prehistoric cannibalism in the form of human body proteins in preserved coprolites, and human bones with butchering marks and human teeth marks. https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archives/view/assemblage/html/9/cole.html https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archives/view/assemblag...
      - samatman 6y ago
        Yeah it's not even vaguely controversial, just something people don't want to hear, because they confuse their food taboos and morality for some kind of human universal, or moral absolute, and think I'm saying "evil" when I say "cannibal". How dare I call them evil, I never even met them! Nah. Cannibalism is basal human behavior. Strong taboos against it are a good idea, but also a relatively recent one, viewed across all of human history.
- chillwaves 6y ago
  Average is not median. Historians say the number is skewed due to the higher infant mortality rate. And I would need to do more research on the prevalence of starvation. Seems like there was plenty of that after agriculture was discovered and we had high populations during a season of crop failure. None of this addresses the reality that humans' playing with the larger ecosystems is incredibly destructive. In a hundred years, people may have a very different view of "progress".
  - int_19h 6y ago
    Even assuming that the average lifespan is solely due to child mortality (it wasn't), would you prefer that to be that much higher? This isn't even something that has to be discussed abstractly - it was much higher not all that long ago, and we have plenty of personal records from those who were directly impacted by it. Going further back, it only gets worse. The reality is that humans playing with larger ecosystems is only as destructive as humans make it - it's not inherently destructive, it just needs to be done with appreciation of long-term effects, and it's something that we're still learning to do as a species. The reality, also, is that any group of humans that goes there, is going to stomp any other group that doesn't, because things like agriculture are necessary to produce a surplus that's needed for the society to maintain specialists - who become specialists because they don't have to spend most of their life foraging for food, because other people can produce more food than they need just for themselves. This category includes professional soldiers.

int_19h 6y ago

It would also keep the human population dying young because of easily preventable (by an industrial civilization) diseases, or just plain starvation.

samatman 6y ago
Can't forget raiding, slavery, and cannibalism!
- chillwaves 6y ago
  Any proof that cannibalism was prevalent in preagricultural era, or are you just dropping in some more mythology? Also there are more slaves in absolute terms today than at any other time. Not sure what agriculture and messing with ecosystems has to do with the human urge to enslave and kill each other.
  - simonh 6y ago
    We have copious evidence of prehistoric cannibalism in the form of human body proteins in preserved coprolites, and human bones with butchering marks and human teeth marks. https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archives/view/assemblage/html/9/cole.html https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archives/view/assemblag...
    - samatman 6y ago
      Yeah it's not even vaguely controversial, just something people don't want to hear, because they confuse their food taboos and morality for some kind of human universal, or moral absolute, and think I'm saying "evil" when I say "cannibal". How dare I call them evil, I never even met them! Nah. Cannibalism is basal human behavior. Strong taboos against it are a good idea, but also a relatively recent one, viewed across all of human history.
chillwaves 6y ago
Average is not median. Historians say the number is skewed due to the higher infant mortality rate. And I would need to do more research on the prevalence of starvation. Seems like there was plenty of that after agriculture was discovered and we had high populations during a season of crop failure. None of this addresses the reality that humans' playing with the larger ecosystems is incredibly destructive. In a hundred years, people may have a very different view of "progress".
- int_19h 6y ago
  Even assuming that the average lifespan is solely due to child mortality (it wasn't), would you prefer that to be that much higher? This isn't even something that has to be discussed abstractly - it was much higher not all that long ago, and we have plenty of personal records from those who were directly impacted by it. Going further back, it only gets worse. The reality is that humans playing with larger ecosystems is only as destructive as humans make it - it's not inherently destructive, it just needs to be done with appreciation of long-term effects, and it's something that we're still learning to do as a species. The reality, also, is that any group of humans that goes there, is going to stomp any other group that doesn't, because things like agriculture are necessary to produce a surplus that's needed for the society to maintain specialists - who become specialists because they don't have to spend most of their life foraging for food, because other people can produce more food than they need just for themselves. This category includes professional soldiers.