12 ms·

How I remember what I learn

556 points by flreln 6y ago

hikerclimber 6y ago
this is not possible.
dstick 6y ago
Expected to read some mind palace thing but came away surprised. Useful stuff in there!
- flreln 6y ago
  Thanks! If you have any questions about the process, happy to answer in the comments.
flreln 6y ago
OP here: didn't expect this one to fly so high because it's too long for HN. Happy to answer any questions you guys have!
- gumby 6y ago
  Why should it be "too long for HN"? Plenty of scientific papers and NYRB and LRB articles make it to the front page.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
    Maybe, but how many people actually read the whole thing? Personally I'm almost exclusively here for the comments and rarely ever click into a link. Maybe that makes me a bad internet citizen, but I don't think it makes me unusual.
    - Silhouette 6y ago
      Personally I'm almost exclusively here for the comments and rarely ever click into a link. On HN, I often take a look at the comments first, to get a feel for whether the linked material is likely to be informative or thought-provoking. If there is an interesting discussion starting or if there is a submission that is getting lots of upvotes yet few comments (as this one was when I first saw it this evening) then that's usually a good sign. FWIW, I've just spent well over an hour reading the article here all the way through, following some of the links to further pieces by the same author and others, and thinking about the ideas. It was probably the most interesting material I've seen all week.
      - flreln 6y ago
        I'm glad you liked it! You should definitely check out Michael Nielsen's work: http://augmentingcognition.com/ltm.html http://augmentingcognition.com/ltm.html.
        buildlove 6y ago
        Thanks for linking this. I've been reading through it and I've found it very interesting and somewhat inspiring so far. I'm especially interested in his suggestion to use Anki to memorize things in your personal/social life, past events, and hobbies. I might look into these more creative ways to use Anki as a tool for establishing long term memories of things that are actually important to me.
- read_if_gay_ 6y ago
  Is there a particular reason why you use 3 files instead of one where you (for example) prefix question lines with a Q and random thoughts with a T? It seems to me that the cost of constantly context switching between files might get in the way.
  - flreln 6y ago
    No particular reason; I have a shift+[ shortcut in Drafts that makes the switch between recent files almost instant. I’ve done both and ended up sticking to a separate file with questions.
    - xmprt 6y ago
      Follow up: How do you quickly import the questions that you write in the plain text file into Anki? And how do you organize information into different decks?
      - flreln 6y ago
        I have one deck only because of mixed practice (ref: https://youtu.be/cwaWHeyK_aM https://youtu.be/cwaWHeyK_aM). As for import, it sucks. Currently I just copy & paste them on my iPad.
- molsongolden 6y ago
  How do you answer your Questions at the start of the next session? Are you answering based on learning that occurred since the question was written or are you looking up the answers? If the former, do you roll Questions forwards until you are able to answer them?
- mujina93 6y ago
  Question: how would you change your method if you didn't have 3 hours to spend every day on pure, focused learning? What if you didn't know how much time you had, or if you had time at all, and your time came only in very small bursts of free time? When I was at the university I had all the time in the world for learning, and I was (artificially) incentivized to learn and retain a lot. Therefore my learning method was really different, rich, deep, optimized for the available time and the broad task. Since I started working, my free time has shrunk by ~90%, and all the incentives for understanding deeply anything have gone to nearly 0. Now I can't afford having a big time slot just for learning, and I changed myself from being engineered to learn and retain theoretical knowledge in bulk to just be able to learn on the fly only the things that I need to use (this has been a positive change, actually. It was a painful change but I realized university had me optimized for something useless for practical purposes). More and more I'm not even trying to retain in any way the small bits of knowledge, documentation, etc., that I encounter. I just read something up, I use it, and I forget it. For example, sometimes I program in programming languages that "I don't know". I just read up the syntax for the constructs I need, search stuff on stack overflow, and then forget everything. Before being able to consider applying your method as a learning method, one has to overcome the time scheduling problem of finding 3 straight hours. Your blog has a "Why I wake up at 5 a.m." entry. I suspect that's what makes it possible for you in the first place? I'm curious! :)
- url00 6y ago
  Hey really enjoyed your post! I was hoping you could expand a little on exactly what sort of things you write in the second file. Are you writing down every "on topic" thought that floats through your head, or are you mostly writing down thoughts after reacting to something prompted by the thing you're learning? The example you have seems to be more the latter, i.e. stuff like "Now let's fix this spaghetti in the render method".
aerovistae 6y ago
mild resentment at the "you'll just memorize the tutorial and your knowledge will be shallow"-- seems mildly judgemental and contradictory of "life's too short to do things that don't interest you"
- TheRealPomax 6y ago
  We don't always get a choice in not pursuing what we don't care about. Being aware of the fact that unless you explore a subject beyond what it says on the page, your knowledge is literally shallow knowledge is an important thing to know. Nothing judgmental about telling folks that?
  - kd0amg 6y ago
    Shallow knowledge isn't a moral failing either. Most things I do for fun benefit from shallow knowledge of something else that I don't find intrinsically interesting enough to study deeply.
- flreln 6y ago
  If you're exploring and tinkering, it's OK to go broad and skim trough things quickly. But if you aim for understanding, depth is required. Don’t see a contradiction here with the "life I short part"; it's more about curiosity (exploring) than studying (exploiting).
- munchbunny 6y ago
  That doesn't seem contradictory to me. There's nothing inherently wrong with shallow knowledge. Shallow knowledge is only bad if you apply it or advertise it as more. Knowing when you need depth and when it's enough to just mimic someone/something is a career skill.
tziki 6y ago
>So much of what we call creativity and intelligence is just memory. This matches my experience very closely. In fact, I find that programmers (and STEM people in general) tend to look down on remembering things since "you can just Google it". However, after working with some very smart people I have a newfound respect for memory. The problem with "I'll just Google it when I need it" is that often great ideas and solutions are based on information that you remember, but you won't get any of those ideas or come up with those solutions if the building blocks aren't there. It's like trying to build a house with half the foundation missing. Remembering things allows you to build new theories and solutions to problems that you could never come up with if you didn't remember those things.
- ritchiea 6y ago
  I disagree with this. You can just google syntax so I don’t bother memorizing syntax. Specific syntax is never going to be the thing I remember that puts all the pieces together. Remembering how things are done and having a good conceptual memory on the other hand is extremely valuable. You can’t google the long story your colleague told you about the incredibly hard to identify bug (well maybe if they have a blog, but you see what I’m getting at?). That stuff is worth remembering, the stuff you can’t just google. Or the vague notion of what to google to solve the problem. You need both good memory and a good sense of what’s worth remembering and what you can just look up.
  - TheRealPomax 6y ago
    But just spending an insignificant amount of time learning to remember the syntax that you use constantly is even more efficient: why waste time looking up what you already know? Spend that time on the real thing you want to do, instead. Not remembering what you can look up is the beginner's shortcut, not looking up what you can just remember is the advanced tactic, and is what gets you to fluency in any subject.
    - hombre_fatal 6y ago
      You're assuming anyone here seriously resists learning something they use all the time because they can google it, something I have a hard time believing yet you assert otherwise. In reality, the things you tend to google every time you need it are precisely things you don't actually use enough to memorize. When you do memorize them, enough time elapses each time to where you forget.
graham_paul 6y ago
does that mean that he could memorise a 500 a4 pages worth of times new roman 12 font size digits?
- 0xCMP 6y ago
  Thats pretty dismissive of the point of the article which focuses on quickly synthesizing their own interpretation in notes, setting up systems for spaced repetition, and filtering what books to even use this system on (by skimming free samples online before purchasing). It's not about memorizing useless information, but about how to remember all the ideas you've learned so you can actually use them later. Especially if you're learning a lot all the time
  - tengbretson 6y ago
    Not making a bald faced lie in the original title would have been a good place to start then.
- TheRealPomax 6y ago
  I guess that depend on whether those digits were meaningful information to them or not. Because if they're "just digits", then there's nothing to remember.
- flreln 6y ago
  No, it doesn't. The point is to remember what you want to remember, not to memorize the whole library.
srtjstjsj 6y ago
Seems more like "studying things I want to learn" (quite normal stuff) than "remembering everything I read" (magic).
tomaszs 6y ago
It is a great method. Similar approach I have used to design Summon The JSON flashcards
polote 6y ago
The whole post is based on > If I forget everything I read, I can’t apply my knowledge to the problem at hand. I can’t transfer it. Which is true, but I'm not really sure your solution is the best way to solve this problem. When you learn react, you are not trying to memorize the full book, you are trying to learn to be able to code in react which is a really different thing. The world champion of french Scrabble doesn't speak french [1] To me you are over engineering the learning process. Learning benefits a lot from forgetting, there is no point trying to memorize a full book so that's normal to forget most of it There are benefits from memorizing a full book but not for the case you are showing as an example (learning React or js) [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/07/21/424980378/winner-of-french-scrabble-title-does-not-speak-french https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/07/21/424980378...
- flreln 6y ago
  Thanks for your comment! I agree with you on the benefits of forgetting and that learning how to code is way more about practice than theory. I should have added that my primary use of the process is to understand concepts well rather than memorize how to write JSX.
- woko 6y ago
  I would not say that there is no point trying to memorize a full book. It is an inefficient use of one's time, sure. However, I believe it can have some benefits. Typically, the process of trying to memorize (assuming one does not do it in the dumbest way) leads to a deeper understanding of some subtlety of the subject.
erjjones 6y ago
As I "favorite" this thread, so I can reference it later to learn how to remember better ;)
- techplex 6y ago
  But will you remember to come back?
lambdaloop 6y ago
Spaced repetition definitely works (and is much better than nothing), but I found it to be quite dull. Recently, I've been reading "The memory code" by Lynne Kelly and found that most of the ancient cultures faced the problem of memory and used memory spaces (aka "method of loci"). I tried it out recently to memorize the timeline of evolutionary history while walking in city streets. I found I could memorize 1-3 items per minute, which very high recall hours and days later. The structure between items was readily apparent, so that I could, for instance, easily estimate that there were ~650 million years between the first terrestrial eukaryotes and first appearance of sharks. The streets have acquired new meaning and the process was really quite enjoyable. With this tool, I actually want to learn the structure of many more things.
- flreln 6y ago
  I suspect the method of loci works because our minds seem to remember routes through spaces better than lists. If you’re curious about spatial cognition, watch this intro to the subject from Barbara Tversky: https://youtu.be/gmc4wEL2aPQ https://youtu.be/gmc4wEL2aPQ.
  - shaykk 6y ago
    What if you're directionally challenged?
    - lambdaloop 6y ago
      I was worried about this, as I don't have a great knack for directions. However, I found that binding items to locations on the street actually helped me remember the layout of the streets as well. Also, you don't need to use a whole street, you can encode a lot in just a room or two! -- Relatedly, I know some people say that they don't have visual imagery: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia . I'm really curious how navigating spaces works for them. Do they have a problem with directions? Could they use memory spaces, but without visual imagery?
      - 6y ago
mickduprez 6y ago
Great read, I kind of do this but on just one page in a notebook. Splitting it up into 3 'areas' (for want of a better word) makes a lot of sense and makes those notes a lot more useful, thanks! I think a few commenters are missing the point or just skimming over the post. It's not about memorising a 'book' or subject by rote, it's about being able to consume, rearrange and remember the subject in a way that's more suitable to how you remember or think about things. It not only clears your thoughts as you study (allowing you to move through the material quicker) but aids in recollection with better organised note taking. Cheers
lethologica 6y ago
This is pretty much the method I settled on while studying as well, but I use Obsidian.md just for linking while doing my "metacognition" as the author calls it. The important thing for me is that while in my 25 minute block of study that I don't go hunting for those links to my other files though, sometimes, they just come to mind. To me, that's a signal that that particular note has 'stuck' if I'm recalling it while writing about other things.
didip 6y ago
Why not just write everything down in a private git repo which you can grep later. Write your thought in a structured, bite sized chunks and you'll be able to recall it quickly.
rebelos 6y ago
Lots of good ideas here and I'm probably going to experiment with some of them as I more deliberately build out my own process. I have one major gripe that I think is worth pointing out: it may behoove you to be more selective in applying this rigorous treatment, if you aren't already. You sort of touched on this with your ideas about sampling books before committing, realizing that most stuff is probably not worth reading. Similarly, most knowledge is not worth running through a high friction retention process. Every unit of time you dedicate to a particular learning task has an opportunity cost. There's a roughly multiplicative factor applied to this cost per task with every additional layer in your retention process. You really want just enough process to get close to an optimal point on the tradeoff between 'exploiting' particular knowledge versus 'exploring' other things. The above is also why I've started to conceptualize the learning process as a funnel. At the top end is inbound content in the form of books, blog posts, videos, etc. The bottom is what becomes indelible learning and enhances understanding. There are several stages in this funnel and what flows through each stage should narrow (both naturally and as a consequence of process) as you progress. With this in mind, I would argue that there should be at least one or two intermediate funnel stages between inbound content and the process you've described.
bttf 6y ago
Realizing that one forgets the majority of what they learn day-to-day is a harrowing realization. It was for me, at least. I built this simple web app to help me keep track of what I learn, and later opened it up to the general public. I've gotten good feedback so far - interested to hear more: https://wyl.today https://wyl.today
totetsu 6y ago
I have found getting the things I want to learn about into audio form (if its not already a podcast), be that by finding recordings (or striping it from videos with newpipe or youtube-dl -x), or using ebooks or OCRing books to text files and playing them in a tts app, and then putting headphones on and riding my bike(being sure to still be able to hear traffic) or rambling around in a forest or mountain, is a very good way to make things memorable. It's a low effort loci method I guess. It's never as good as sitting down an purposefully making a memory palace and then doing recollection practice, but it is much less energy to do. Its also good for things you cant be bothered reading. This morning I listened through the H1B visa thread this way. (and heard some interesting bug in the HN site where the posts started to be "one million minuets ago" then "buffer overflow minuets ago" ..)
pratyushmittal 6y ago
I used Anki to remember anything. It worked the best. It solved the purpose. Then I read Erich Fromm's "To Have or To Be" - and it changed me. It made me question if I was just "having" all that knowledge or really "practicing" it. It felt good to know lots of interesting facts of chemistry, physics, geography and code. But I just "had" them - never "enjoyed" them. Will highly recommend the book. For a moment, pause and re-think, why do we need to remember everything?
- BeetleB 6y ago
  If you look at most advice given on using spaced repetition well, the standard advice is "Don't learn random stuff" and usually some other advice on ensuring what you put in your cards is meaningful to you. For me, there is a bit of effort required in creating the card. That alone makes me only put in things I think are meaningful to me. Lots of times I learn something interesting and think to myself "I should make a card out of that", but it's too inconvenient. As such, most of my cards are for things I am intentionally studying.
__mharrison__ 6y ago
How timely. Due to covid-19 and most of my corporate training going from live to virtual, I decided I needed to improve my teaching. I invested a bit on physical tooling and I doubled down and studied learning earlier this year. I just created an online course on learning and it was released today!? (Full disclosure I'm the author of said course) if you are interested in a course that has a bunch of overlap with this article, check it out. https://mattharrison.podia.com https://mattharrison.podia.com
mikewarot 6y ago
I'm a mapper http://wiki.c2.com/?MappersVsPackers http://wiki.c2.com/?MappersVsPackers I hold many ideas, some of them contradictory, in limbo in my brain until they match up with others, and my map of the world gets a bit larger and better connected. I strongly suspect you are a packer... and wow, that's a lot of work. My approach to getting a skill is to dive in, recklessly, and pound away, until I've beat the technology into submission, and it does it exactly what I want, how I want. I strongly suspect this approach wouldn't work for you. (Unless you did it a lot, and become a mapper if that is even possible)
jyriand 6y ago
I remember being very meticulous about my learning process and tried to build a sandcastle of knowledge. I had notebooks for every subject, I went over them every so often just to be sure I don't forget stuff etc. I was living in a 19th century time-frame and hoped to be one of those autodidacts, Renaissance men, polymaths who knew everything there was to know about the world they were living in. Romantic and vain dreams, that don't match our times. I grew out of it and the truth is similar to Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap! So, why waste my time on trying to memorize stuff I don't really need, just to satisfy my own superiority complex and to feel like an erudite man? Now I'm using Just-In-Time approach: If I don't know or can't remember something, I will look it up.
- kubanczyk 6y ago
  How would you go about learning the most important thing that you have an eye on nowadays? Because if there are no important topics, yes, I would stop to ponder.
  - jyriand 6y ago
    Few days back I stumbled upon a video about Ramanujan [0] and the: 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 ..(to infinity) = -1/12.(Turns out the proof in the video is incorrect or at least not concise enough, because you can't do that with divergent series). So that got me curious and I wanted to understand what's going on. How can 1 + 2 .. etc equal to -1/12 and not infinity. So I went on small binge watching videos to get an intuition and understanding about this. This led me to Riemann Hypothesis and Euler's identities and complex numbers etc. Now I have a list of books that I want to skim/read to get a historical context around these problems. I don't take any notes just yet, because I don't know what is important and what is not, I just jump into the stuff and hope that when I come out of the other end I will at least have a understanding why it equals -1/12. It's like panning out gold, there might be some gold nuggets. And maybe, just by pure chance, I come up with some ridiculous ideas how to disprove Riemann Hypothesis ;P (I think I have to revisit Gödel, Escher, Bach and Gödel's Incompletness Theorems to prove that it's not provable). - [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-I6XTVZXww https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-I6XTVZXww EDIT: Sorry to all facepalming mathematicians who happen to read this comment.
justinzollars 6y ago
In college, a very long time ago, I read a strategy of remembering things. Imagining your house. And in your house you would place a specific thing you were trying to remember in a specific place in that house. I'd put formulas in a drawer. It seemed to work for Organic Chemistry.
gauchojs 6y ago
Similarly, I've been putting meeting notes, life decisions and reading notes in RoamResearch in the hopes that it can replace my "crappy" natural memory at least a little bit. But I haven't really collected any fruits from it (a few months now).
pnt12 6y ago
This post touches many topics I learned in a MOOC about meta-learning: focus time (there's also the important diffuse time, eg shower thoughts), recall, practice, forming long term memories, resting. I highly suggest the MOOC, it's free without certification, and you can start any time: https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn
ilSignorCarlo 6y ago
it's a really interesting post, and I really like your approach to studying. Thank you for detailing it so clearly. I've never used Drafts and I'm curious about how do you keep your files organised after a session. You write a sort of recap of what you've learned, that's clear. But how are the other 3 files grouped together? Only by date or timestamp? Do you ever go back to or search through your old files? Also, another curiosity:instinctively I would keep my study material on the iPad and take notes on the laptop. What's the advantage in doing it the other way around? And thanks again!
tmaly 6y ago
I think I would prefer to use 3 pieces of paper in place of 3 text files. Maybe there is an easy way to digitize these later? Take a picture with an ipad and continue to add to them?

556 points by flreln 6y ago

hikerclimber 6y ago

this is not possible.

dstick 6y ago

Expected to read some mind palace thing but came away surprised. Useful stuff in there!

flreln 6y ago
Thanks! If you have any questions about the process, happy to answer in the comments.

flreln 6y ago

OP here: didn't expect this one to fly so high because it's too long for HN. Happy to answer any questions you guys have!

gumby 6y ago
Why should it be "too long for HN"? Plenty of scientific papers and NYRB and LRB articles make it to the front page.
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
  Maybe, but how many people actually read the whole thing? Personally I'm almost exclusively here for the comments and rarely ever click into a link. Maybe that makes me a bad internet citizen, but I don't think it makes me unusual.
  - Silhouette 6y ago
    Personally I'm almost exclusively here for the comments and rarely ever click into a link. On HN, I often take a look at the comments first, to get a feel for whether the linked material is likely to be informative or thought-provoking. If there is an interesting discussion starting or if there is a submission that is getting lots of upvotes yet few comments (as this one was when I first saw it this evening) then that's usually a good sign. FWIW, I've just spent well over an hour reading the article here all the way through, following some of the links to further pieces by the same author and others, and thinking about the ideas. It was probably the most interesting material I've seen all week.
    - flreln 6y ago
      I'm glad you liked it! You should definitely check out Michael Nielsen's work: http://augmentingcognition.com/ltm.html http://augmentingcognition.com/ltm.html.
      - buildlove 6y ago
        Thanks for linking this. I've been reading through it and I've found it very interesting and somewhat inspiring so far. I'm especially interested in his suggestion to use Anki to memorize things in your personal/social life, past events, and hobbies. I might look into these more creative ways to use Anki as a tool for establishing long term memories of things that are actually important to me.
read_if_gay_ 6y ago
Is there a particular reason why you use 3 files instead of one where you (for example) prefix question lines with a Q and random thoughts with a T? It seems to me that the cost of constantly context switching between files might get in the way.
- flreln 6y ago
  No particular reason; I have a shift+[ shortcut in Drafts that makes the switch between recent files almost instant. I’ve done both and ended up sticking to a separate file with questions.
  - xmprt 6y ago
    Follow up: How do you quickly import the questions that you write in the plain text file into Anki? And how do you organize information into different decks?
    - flreln 6y ago
      I have one deck only because of mixed practice (ref: https://youtu.be/cwaWHeyK_aM https://youtu.be/cwaWHeyK_aM). As for import, it sucks. Currently I just copy & paste them on my iPad.
molsongolden 6y ago
How do you answer your Questions at the start of the next session? Are you answering based on learning that occurred since the question was written or are you looking up the answers? If the former, do you roll Questions forwards until you are able to answer them?
mujina93 6y ago
Question: how would you change your method if you didn't have 3 hours to spend every day on pure, focused learning? What if you didn't know how much time you had, or if you had time at all, and your time came only in very small bursts of free time? When I was at the university I had all the time in the world for learning, and I was (artificially) incentivized to learn and retain a lot. Therefore my learning method was really different, rich, deep, optimized for the available time and the broad task. Since I started working, my free time has shrunk by ~90%, and all the incentives for understanding deeply anything have gone to nearly 0. Now I can't afford having a big time slot just for learning, and I changed myself from being engineered to learn and retain theoretical knowledge in bulk to just be able to learn on the fly only the things that I need to use (this has been a positive change, actually. It was a painful change but I realized university had me optimized for something useless for practical purposes). More and more I'm not even trying to retain in any way the small bits of knowledge, documentation, etc., that I encounter. I just read something up, I use it, and I forget it. For example, sometimes I program in programming languages that "I don't know". I just read up the syntax for the constructs I need, search stuff on stack overflow, and then forget everything. Before being able to consider applying your method as a learning method, one has to overcome the time scheduling problem of finding 3 straight hours. Your blog has a "Why I wake up at 5 a.m." entry. I suspect that's what makes it possible for you in the first place? I'm curious! :)
url00 6y ago
Hey really enjoyed your post! I was hoping you could expand a little on exactly what sort of things you write in the second file. Are you writing down every "on topic" thought that floats through your head, or are you mostly writing down thoughts after reacting to something prompted by the thing you're learning? The example you have seems to be more the latter, i.e. stuff like "Now let's fix this spaghetti in the render method".

aerovistae 6y ago

mild resentment at the "you'll just memorize the tutorial and your knowledge will be shallow"-- seems mildly judgemental and contradictory of "life's too short to do things that don't interest you"

TheRealPomax 6y ago
We don't always get a choice in not pursuing what we don't care about. Being aware of the fact that unless you explore a subject beyond what it says on the page, your knowledge is literally shallow knowledge is an important thing to know. Nothing judgmental about telling folks that?
- kd0amg 6y ago
  Shallow knowledge isn't a moral failing either. Most things I do for fun benefit from shallow knowledge of something else that I don't find intrinsically interesting enough to study deeply.
flreln 6y ago
If you're exploring and tinkering, it's OK to go broad and skim trough things quickly. But if you aim for understanding, depth is required. Don’t see a contradiction here with the "life I short part"; it's more about curiosity (exploring) than studying (exploiting).
munchbunny 6y ago
That doesn't seem contradictory to me. There's nothing inherently wrong with shallow knowledge. Shallow knowledge is only bad if you apply it or advertise it as more. Knowing when you need depth and when it's enough to just mimic someone/something is a career skill.

tziki 6y ago

>So much of what we call creativity and intelligence is just memory. This matches my experience very closely. In fact, I find that programmers (and STEM people in general) tend to look down on remembering things since "you can just Google it". However, after working with some very smart people I have a newfound respect for memory. The problem with "I'll just Google it when I need it" is that often great ideas and solutions are based on information that you remember, but you won't get any of those ideas or come up with those solutions if the building blocks aren't there. It's like trying to build a house with half the foundation missing. Remembering things allows you to build new theories and solutions to problems that you could never come up with if you didn't remember those things.

ritchiea 6y ago
I disagree with this. You can just google syntax so I don’t bother memorizing syntax. Specific syntax is never going to be the thing I remember that puts all the pieces together. Remembering how things are done and having a good conceptual memory on the other hand is extremely valuable. You can’t google the long story your colleague told you about the incredibly hard to identify bug (well maybe if they have a blog, but you see what I’m getting at?). That stuff is worth remembering, the stuff you can’t just google. Or the vague notion of what to google to solve the problem. You need both good memory and a good sense of what’s worth remembering and what you can just look up.
- TheRealPomax 6y ago
  But just spending an insignificant amount of time learning to remember the syntax that you use constantly is even more efficient: why waste time looking up what you already know? Spend that time on the real thing you want to do, instead. Not remembering what you can look up is the beginner's shortcut, not looking up what you can just remember is the advanced tactic, and is what gets you to fluency in any subject.
  - hombre_fatal 6y ago
    You're assuming anyone here seriously resists learning something they use all the time because they can google it, something I have a hard time believing yet you assert otherwise. In reality, the things you tend to google every time you need it are precisely things you don't actually use enough to memorize. When you do memorize them, enough time elapses each time to where you forget.

graham_paul 6y ago

does that mean that he could memorise a 500 a4 pages worth of times new roman 12 font size digits?

0xCMP 6y ago
Thats pretty dismissive of the point of the article which focuses on quickly synthesizing their own interpretation in notes, setting up systems for spaced repetition, and filtering what books to even use this system on (by skimming free samples online before purchasing). It's not about memorizing useless information, but about how to remember all the ideas you've learned so you can actually use them later. Especially if you're learning a lot all the time
- tengbretson 6y ago
  Not making a bald faced lie in the original title would have been a good place to start then.
TheRealPomax 6y ago
I guess that depend on whether those digits were meaningful information to them or not. Because if they're "just digits", then there's nothing to remember.
flreln 6y ago
No, it doesn't. The point is to remember what you want to remember, not to memorize the whole library.

srtjstjsj 6y ago

Seems more like "studying things I want to learn" (quite normal stuff) than "remembering everything I read" (magic).

tomaszs 6y ago

It is a great method. Similar approach I have used to design Summon The JSON flashcards

polote 6y ago

The whole post is based on > If I forget everything I read, I can’t apply my knowledge to the problem at hand. I can’t transfer it. Which is true, but I'm not really sure your solution is the best way to solve this problem. When you learn react, you are not trying to memorize the full book, you are trying to learn to be able to code in react which is a really different thing. The world champion of french Scrabble doesn't speak french [1] To me you are over engineering the learning process. Learning benefits a lot from forgetting, there is no point trying to memorize a full book so that's normal to forget most of it There are benefits from memorizing a full book but not for the case you are showing as an example (learning React or js) [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/07/21/424980378/winner-of-french-scrabble-title-does-not-speak-french https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/07/21/424980378...

flreln 6y ago
Thanks for your comment! I agree with you on the benefits of forgetting and that learning how to code is way more about practice than theory. I should have added that my primary use of the process is to understand concepts well rather than memorize how to write JSX.
woko 6y ago
I would not say that there is no point trying to memorize a full book. It is an inefficient use of one's time, sure. However, I believe it can have some benefits. Typically, the process of trying to memorize (assuming one does not do it in the dumbest way) leads to a deeper understanding of some subtlety of the subject.

erjjones 6y ago

As I "favorite" this thread, so I can reference it later to learn how to remember better ;)

techplex 6y ago
But will you remember to come back?

lambdaloop 6y ago

Spaced repetition definitely works (and is much better than nothing), but I found it to be quite dull. Recently, I've been reading "The memory code" by Lynne Kelly and found that most of the ancient cultures faced the problem of memory and used memory spaces (aka "method of loci"). I tried it out recently to memorize the timeline of evolutionary history while walking in city streets. I found I could memorize 1-3 items per minute, which very high recall hours and days later. The structure between items was readily apparent, so that I could, for instance, easily estimate that there were ~650 million years between the first terrestrial eukaryotes and first appearance of sharks. The streets have acquired new meaning and the process was really quite enjoyable. With this tool, I actually want to learn the structure of many more things.

flreln 6y ago
I suspect the method of loci works because our minds seem to remember routes through spaces better than lists. If you’re curious about spatial cognition, watch this intro to the subject from Barbara Tversky: https://youtu.be/gmc4wEL2aPQ https://youtu.be/gmc4wEL2aPQ.
- shaykk 6y ago
  What if you're directionally challenged?
  - lambdaloop 6y ago
    I was worried about this, as I don't have a great knack for directions. However, I found that binding items to locations on the street actually helped me remember the layout of the streets as well. Also, you don't need to use a whole street, you can encode a lot in just a room or two! -- Relatedly, I know some people say that they don't have visual imagery: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia . I'm really curious how navigating spaces works for them. Do they have a problem with directions? Could they use memory spaces, but without visual imagery?
    - 6y ago

mickduprez 6y ago

Great read, I kind of do this but on just one page in a notebook. Splitting it up into 3 'areas' (for want of a better word) makes a lot of sense and makes those notes a lot more useful, thanks! I think a few commenters are missing the point or just skimming over the post. It's not about memorising a 'book' or subject by rote, it's about being able to consume, rearrange and remember the subject in a way that's more suitable to how you remember or think about things. It not only clears your thoughts as you study (allowing you to move through the material quicker) but aids in recollection with better organised note taking. Cheers

lethologica 6y ago

This is pretty much the method I settled on while studying as well, but I use Obsidian.md just for linking while doing my "metacognition" as the author calls it. The important thing for me is that while in my 25 minute block of study that I don't go hunting for those links to my other files though, sometimes, they just come to mind. To me, that's a signal that that particular note has 'stuck' if I'm recalling it while writing about other things.

didip 6y ago

Why not just write everything down in a private git repo which you can grep later. Write your thought in a structured, bite sized chunks and you'll be able to recall it quickly.

rebelos 6y ago

Lots of good ideas here and I'm probably going to experiment with some of them as I more deliberately build out my own process. I have one major gripe that I think is worth pointing out: it may behoove you to be more selective in applying this rigorous treatment, if you aren't already. You sort of touched on this with your ideas about sampling books before committing, realizing that most stuff is probably not worth reading. Similarly, most knowledge is not worth running through a high friction retention process. Every unit of time you dedicate to a particular learning task has an opportunity cost. There's a roughly multiplicative factor applied to this cost per task with every additional layer in your retention process. You really want just enough process to get close to an optimal point on the tradeoff between 'exploiting' particular knowledge versus 'exploring' other things. The above is also why I've started to conceptualize the learning process as a funnel. At the top end is inbound content in the form of books, blog posts, videos, etc. The bottom is what becomes indelible learning and enhances understanding. There are several stages in this funnel and what flows through each stage should narrow (both naturally and as a consequence of process) as you progress. With this in mind, I would argue that there should be at least one or two intermediate funnel stages between inbound content and the process you've described.

bttf 6y ago

Realizing that one forgets the majority of what they learn day-to-day is a harrowing realization. It was for me, at least. I built this simple web app to help me keep track of what I learn, and later opened it up to the general public. I've gotten good feedback so far - interested to hear more: https://wyl.today https://wyl.today

totetsu 6y ago

I have found getting the things I want to learn about into audio form (if its not already a podcast), be that by finding recordings (or striping it from videos with newpipe or youtube-dl -x), or using ebooks or OCRing books to text files and playing them in a tts app, and then putting headphones on and riding my bike(being sure to still be able to hear traffic) or rambling around in a forest or mountain, is a very good way to make things memorable. It's a low effort loci method I guess. It's never as good as sitting down an purposefully making a memory palace and then doing recollection practice, but it is much less energy to do. Its also good for things you cant be bothered reading. This morning I listened through the H1B visa thread this way. (and heard some interesting bug in the HN site where the posts started to be "one million minuets ago" then "buffer overflow minuets ago" ..)

pratyushmittal 6y ago

I used Anki to remember anything. It worked the best. It solved the purpose. Then I read Erich Fromm's "To Have or To Be" - and it changed me. It made me question if I was just "having" all that knowledge or really "practicing" it. It felt good to know lots of interesting facts of chemistry, physics, geography and code. But I just "had" them - never "enjoyed" them. Will highly recommend the book. For a moment, pause and re-think, why do we need to remember everything?

BeetleB 6y ago
If you look at most advice given on using spaced repetition well, the standard advice is "Don't learn random stuff" and usually some other advice on ensuring what you put in your cards is meaningful to you. For me, there is a bit of effort required in creating the card. That alone makes me only put in things I think are meaningful to me. Lots of times I learn something interesting and think to myself "I should make a card out of that", but it's too inconvenient. As such, most of my cards are for things I am intentionally studying.

__mharrison__ 6y ago

How timely. Due to covid-19 and most of my corporate training going from live to virtual, I decided I needed to improve my teaching. I invested a bit on physical tooling and I doubled down and studied learning earlier this year. I just created an online course on learning and it was released today!? (Full disclosure I'm the author of said course) if you are interested in a course that has a bunch of overlap with this article, check it out. https://mattharrison.podia.com https://mattharrison.podia.com

mikewarot 6y ago

I'm a mapper http://wiki.c2.com/?MappersVsPackers http://wiki.c2.com/?MappersVsPackers I hold many ideas, some of them contradictory, in limbo in my brain until they match up with others, and my map of the world gets a bit larger and better connected. I strongly suspect you are a packer... and wow, that's a lot of work. My approach to getting a skill is to dive in, recklessly, and pound away, until I've beat the technology into submission, and it does it exactly what I want, how I want. I strongly suspect this approach wouldn't work for you. (Unless you did it a lot, and become a mapper if that is even possible)

jyriand 6y ago

I remember being very meticulous about my learning process and tried to build a sandcastle of knowledge. I had notebooks for every subject, I went over them every so often just to be sure I don't forget stuff etc. I was living in a 19th century time-frame and hoped to be one of those autodidacts, Renaissance men, polymaths who knew everything there was to know about the world they were living in. Romantic and vain dreams, that don't match our times. I grew out of it and the truth is similar to Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap! So, why waste my time on trying to memorize stuff I don't really need, just to satisfy my own superiority complex and to feel like an erudite man? Now I'm using Just-In-Time approach: If I don't know or can't remember something, I will look it up.

kubanczyk 6y ago
How would you go about learning the most important thing that you have an eye on nowadays? Because if there are no important topics, yes, I would stop to ponder.
- jyriand 6y ago
  Few days back I stumbled upon a video about Ramanujan [0] and the: 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 ..(to infinity) = -1/12.(Turns out the proof in the video is incorrect or at least not concise enough, because you can't do that with divergent series). So that got me curious and I wanted to understand what's going on. How can 1 + 2 .. etc equal to -1/12 and not infinity. So I went on small binge watching videos to get an intuition and understanding about this. This led me to Riemann Hypothesis and Euler's identities and complex numbers etc. Now I have a list of books that I want to skim/read to get a historical context around these problems. I don't take any notes just yet, because I don't know what is important and what is not, I just jump into the stuff and hope that when I come out of the other end I will at least have a understanding why it equals -1/12. It's like panning out gold, there might be some gold nuggets. And maybe, just by pure chance, I come up with some ridiculous ideas how to disprove Riemann Hypothesis ;P (I think I have to revisit Gödel, Escher, Bach and Gödel's Incompletness Theorems to prove that it's not provable). - [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-I6XTVZXww https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-I6XTVZXww EDIT: Sorry to all facepalming mathematicians who happen to read this comment.

justinzollars 6y ago

In college, a very long time ago, I read a strategy of remembering things. Imagining your house. And in your house you would place a specific thing you were trying to remember in a specific place in that house. I'd put formulas in a drawer. It seemed to work for Organic Chemistry.

gauchojs 6y ago

Similarly, I've been putting meeting notes, life decisions and reading notes in RoamResearch in the hopes that it can replace my "crappy" natural memory at least a little bit. But I haven't really collected any fruits from it (a few months now).

pnt12 6y ago

This post touches many topics I learned in a MOOC about meta-learning: focus time (there's also the important diffuse time, eg shower thoughts), recall, practice, forming long term memories, resting. I highly suggest the MOOC, it's free without certification, and you can start any time: https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn

ilSignorCarlo 6y ago

it's a really interesting post, and I really like your approach to studying. Thank you for detailing it so clearly. I've never used Drafts and I'm curious about how do you keep your files organised after a session. You write a sort of recap of what you've learned, that's clear. But how are the other 3 files grouped together? Only by date or timestamp? Do you ever go back to or search through your old files? Also, another curiosity:instinctively I would keep my study material on the iPad and take notes on the laptop. What's the advantage in doing it the other way around? And thanks again!

tmaly 6y ago

I think I would prefer to use 3 pieces of paper in place of 3 text files. Maybe there is an easy way to digitize these later? Take a picture with an ipad and continue to add to them?