4 ms·

I think you will find the engineering brain drain from any US region that doesn't (currently) have high paying tech jobs. I went to Georgia Tech and a significa

I think you will find the engineering brain drain from any US region that doesn't (currently) have high paying tech jobs. I went to Georgia Tech and a significant number of CS grads from there moved to NYC, Bay Area, Seattle, or Austin.

strictnein 6y ago
When factoring in the cost of living, there isn't much of a pay difference. This is especially true once you have a family and have to care about living in a good school district.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  There's a huge pay difference for the top x%, including cost of living. And y% of people like to believe they are or will be part of the top x%, where y >>>> x.
- hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
  Your second sentence may be true, but your first sentence is most definitely not. The biggest thing that accounts for the cost of living difference is housing. If you can live relatively cheaply, which most people in their 20s can, you will always come out ahead (and usually WAY ahead) if you take a high paying job in an expensive area vs taking a lower paying job in a cheap area.
- throwawaygh 6y ago
  I can rent a $4,500 apartment and still save, post-tax, at least $100,000 more than I could save post-tax anywhere in the midwest except maybe Chicago. Even including the value of paying off a mortgage vs. rent. Tech jobs that pay more than $300,000 -- maybe $350,000 -- simply don't exist in large quantities outside major job markets. And the ones that do aren't the "trusted senior individual contributor with plenty of freedom to choose your projects" roles that exist in spades on the coasts. Last time I job marketed in the midwest I couldn't even break $250 all-in, the vesting schedule was pure bullshit, and that role would have included a lot of political BS. Basically moving from blissful respected individual contributor to stressed out disrespected middle management, and all for a massive cut in post-tax savings. I get why jobs are exploding in those areas, but they aren't the sorts of jobs I want.
  - twox2 6y ago
    " simply don't exist in large quantities outside major job markets." Job's that pay that much don't exist in large quantities period. If you think otherwise, you live in a walled garden.
    - pb7 6y ago
      That may be true but they still appear an order of magnitude less in the Midwest than coastal hubs so the point is the same.
      - mark-r 6y ago
        So your chances of getting such a job go from 0.001% to 0.01%? I'll take my chances in the Midwest.
        pb7 6y ago
        Given a candidate is already in the software industry, the odds of getting a high paying job in the Bay Area are much higher than 0.01%. Top paying companies have the same interview standards everywhere but the number of positions are significantly higher in tech hubs. Not sure why you think your chances are better in the Midwest. Self-defeatist attitude will pull those chances down to zero everywhere though.
        jjeaff 6y ago
        I think their point was that there are very few jobs even in the bay area paying $300k or more.
        pb7 6y ago
        There are more jobs paying $300K+ than there are qualified candidates for them otherwise there wouldn't be thousands of job openings for them at any given time.
- pratik661 6y ago
  I strongly disagree with the first point. The high salaries in the Bay Area and NYC filter out jobs where the marginal value of the labor is low. This also filters out low margin, low productivity businesses. This in aggregate also filters for higher skill employees on average. As a result, the chances of you working at a highly profitable (or fast growing) company is higher. The chances of you working with (and being mentored by) high skill colleagues is higher. Working at a growth potential or high margin company where you are a profit center, working with/collaborating with/being mentored by other (on average) high skill workers means you have a much higher earnings cap, even factoring for COL.
  - managerclass 6y ago
    I completely agree. I made the mistake of taking a lower paying job in a lower cost area at the start of my career. When I did move to a higher paid area, I found that new grads were almost being paid my rate.
    - pratik661 6y ago
      Same. The comment was a reflection of my observation from Plano -> SF -> NYC. I started my career in Plano. I personally was able to grow a lot more in my career after moving to SF (and later NYC).
- nilkn 6y ago
  Engineering managers at large companies in the Bay Area can make $600k. (And I don't mean directors or VPs, which are over $1 million.) Engineering managers in the Midwest are generally lucky to reach $200k. That's a basic new grad offer in the Bay Area. Obviously not everyone is going to CA and getting a $600k income, but the compensation cap there is dramatically higher for top talent.
- thebean11 6y ago
  Saving 30% of a 200k salary is a lot better than saving 30% of a 90k salary.
  - dogman144 6y ago
    Fwiw I did the math on that for goals of saving ~$300k for a mortgage and similar stuff. It usually pays to sit in the big city for a few years with that salary, and then decamp to the smaller tech orbits, if your goal is to end up in one of the smaller cities.
cptskippy 6y ago
Atlanta has a lot of high paying tech jobs, they just aren't as fashionable as Google or Facebook.
- DetroitThrow 6y ago
  Just curious, are these high paying tech jobs as high paying as G or FB? I know, for example, MailChimp and Microsoft have offices out there but last I saw they were paying significantly less than either of the aforementioned companies - levels.fyi can validate this further, too.
  - cptskippy 6y ago
    When you say "high paying" do you mean Silly Valley 10x Coder positions that are as likely as landing a job as frontman for Aerosmith? Or are you talking about $125-200k code monkey positions? Atlanta has plenty of the later.
    - DetroitThrow 6y ago
      I do mean those higher paying ones than I see at levels.fyi than the Atlanta companies I listed, but I can guarantee that it's far easier to get into G, FB, Snap, Stripe, Netflix, etc than to be a frontman at Aerosmith if that's what you're considering the former - they are literally some of the biggest employers of software engineers after all. Additionally, they hire in many more places than Silicon Valley - there are a lot living on those high salaries in the Midwest and South, for example.

strictnein 6y ago

When factoring in the cost of living, there isn't much of a pay difference. This is especially true once you have a family and have to care about living in a good school district.

lotsofpulp 6y ago
There's a huge pay difference for the top x%, including cost of living. And y% of people like to believe they are or will be part of the top x%, where y >>>> x.
hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
Your second sentence may be true, but your first sentence is most definitely not. The biggest thing that accounts for the cost of living difference is housing. If you can live relatively cheaply, which most people in their 20s can, you will always come out ahead (and usually WAY ahead) if you take a high paying job in an expensive area vs taking a lower paying job in a cheap area.
throwawaygh 6y ago
I can rent a $4,500 apartment and still save, post-tax, at least $100,000 more than I could save post-tax anywhere in the midwest except maybe Chicago. Even including the value of paying off a mortgage vs. rent. Tech jobs that pay more than $300,000 -- maybe $350,000 -- simply don't exist in large quantities outside major job markets. And the ones that do aren't the "trusted senior individual contributor with plenty of freedom to choose your projects" roles that exist in spades on the coasts. Last time I job marketed in the midwest I couldn't even break $250 all-in, the vesting schedule was pure bullshit, and that role would have included a lot of political BS. Basically moving from blissful respected individual contributor to stressed out disrespected middle management, and all for a massive cut in post-tax savings. I get why jobs are exploding in those areas, but they aren't the sorts of jobs I want.
- twox2 6y ago
  " simply don't exist in large quantities outside major job markets." Job's that pay that much don't exist in large quantities period. If you think otherwise, you live in a walled garden.
  - pb7 6y ago
    That may be true but they still appear an order of magnitude less in the Midwest than coastal hubs so the point is the same.
    - mark-r 6y ago
      So your chances of getting such a job go from 0.001% to 0.01%? I'll take my chances in the Midwest.
      - pb7 6y ago
        Given a candidate is already in the software industry, the odds of getting a high paying job in the Bay Area are much higher than 0.01%. Top paying companies have the same interview standards everywhere but the number of positions are significantly higher in tech hubs. Not sure why you think your chances are better in the Midwest. Self-defeatist attitude will pull those chances down to zero everywhere though.
        jjeaff 6y ago
        I think their point was that there are very few jobs even in the bay area paying $300k or more.
        pb7 6y ago
        There are more jobs paying $300K+ than there are qualified candidates for them otherwise there wouldn't be thousands of job openings for them at any given time.
pratik661 6y ago
I strongly disagree with the first point. The high salaries in the Bay Area and NYC filter out jobs where the marginal value of the labor is low. This also filters out low margin, low productivity businesses. This in aggregate also filters for higher skill employees on average. As a result, the chances of you working at a highly profitable (or fast growing) company is higher. The chances of you working with (and being mentored by) high skill colleagues is higher. Working at a growth potential or high margin company where you are a profit center, working with/collaborating with/being mentored by other (on average) high skill workers means you have a much higher earnings cap, even factoring for COL.
- managerclass 6y ago
  I completely agree. I made the mistake of taking a lower paying job in a lower cost area at the start of my career. When I did move to a higher paid area, I found that new grads were almost being paid my rate.
  - pratik661 6y ago
    Same. The comment was a reflection of my observation from Plano -> SF -> NYC. I started my career in Plano. I personally was able to grow a lot more in my career after moving to SF (and later NYC).
nilkn 6y ago
Engineering managers at large companies in the Bay Area can make $600k. (And I don't mean directors or VPs, which are over $1 million.) Engineering managers in the Midwest are generally lucky to reach $200k. That's a basic new grad offer in the Bay Area. Obviously not everyone is going to CA and getting a $600k income, but the compensation cap there is dramatically higher for top talent.
thebean11 6y ago
Saving 30% of a 200k salary is a lot better than saving 30% of a 90k salary.
- dogman144 6y ago
  Fwiw I did the math on that for goals of saving ~$300k for a mortgage and similar stuff. It usually pays to sit in the big city for a few years with that salary, and then decamp to the smaller tech orbits, if your goal is to end up in one of the smaller cities.

cptskippy 6y ago

Atlanta has a lot of high paying tech jobs, they just aren't as fashionable as Google or Facebook.

DetroitThrow 6y ago
Just curious, are these high paying tech jobs as high paying as G or FB? I know, for example, MailChimp and Microsoft have offices out there but last I saw they were paying significantly less than either of the aforementioned companies - levels.fyi can validate this further, too.
- cptskippy 6y ago
  When you say "high paying" do you mean Silly Valley 10x Coder positions that are as likely as landing a job as frontman for Aerosmith? Or are you talking about $125-200k code monkey positions? Atlanta has plenty of the later.
  - DetroitThrow 6y ago
    I do mean those higher paying ones than I see at levels.fyi than the Atlanta companies I listed, but I can guarantee that it's far easier to get into G, FB, Snap, Stripe, Netflix, etc than to be a frontman at Aerosmith if that's what you're considering the former - they are literally some of the biggest employers of software engineers after all. Additionally, they hire in many more places than Silicon Valley - there are a lot living on those high salaries in the Midwest and South, for example.