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Situations can change, as can our understanding of the situation. What seems benign at one point in time can seem like a bad idea with more information. Revisit

Situations can change, as can our understanding of the situation. What seems benign at one point in time can seem like a bad idea with more information. Revisiting decisions based on new information or a changed situation seems like a hallmark of good governing to me. Consider Freon. It was legal to use for a long time. With evidence that it's bad for the environment, it's no longer legal for most uses.

ehsankia 6y ago
Then make very specific company-agnostic behaviors illegal, like with Freon. They didn't say "we ban company X from making any fridges", it was a general ban. If there's a certain behavior that's problematic (still not sure what specifically you would be referring to here), then ban that, not handpicked companies. This is the TikTok crap all over again. They want to help national security and user privacy, but instead of banning data collection, they target TikTok specifically, because they know other US owned apps do very similar data collection.
- RestlessMind 6y ago
  > This is the TikTok crap all over again. They want to help national security and user privacy... Am I the only one who thinks that TikTok was more about geopolitics concerning US/China and much less about user privacy?
  - vorpalhex 6y ago
    Facebook selling your data to advertisers is annoying. TikTok et al vacuuming up data to be stored by the CCP for things like blackmail[0] is horrifying and basically geopolitical chess moving to give them leverage on things like putting Muslims in detention camps [1]. Treating the two as equivalent is somewhere between intentionally ignorant or acting in bad faith. [0] - https://www.theepochtimes.com/china-has-a-database-on-americans-built-from-stolen-data_2876161.html https://www.theepochtimes.com/china-has-a-database-on-americ... [1] - https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/china-confirms-death-of-uighur-man-whose-family-says-was-held-in-xinjiang-camps/ar-BB19D1G7 https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/china-confirms-death-of...
    - inetknght 6y ago
      > Facebook selling your data to advertisers is annoying. Facebook selling your data to advertisers is also horrifying. American "businesses" accept foreign investments and money all the time. Nothing stops those same countries from buying data from Facebook. The only difference between that and TikTok is that money is exchanged. It's just as horrifying.
      - vorpalhex 6y ago
        Unlike the CCP, Facebook isn't literally harvesting organs [2] or implanting intelligence assets [3]. Facebook shouldn't be reckless with user data, but when it's users start getting black bagged and having their vital organs removed, then we can compare the two. Mind you, all the major foreign companies are already banned in China so they can't possibly be involved. [2] - https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests-organs-detainees-tribunal-concludes-n1018646 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests... [3] - https://thediplomat.com/2020/09/two-recent-alleged-episodes-of-chinese-espionage-raise-worrying-and-difficult-questions/ https://thediplomat.com/2020/09/two-recent-alleged-episodes-...
        inetknght 6y ago
        > Facebook shouldn't be reckless with user data, but when it's users start getting black bagged and having their vital organs removed, then we can compare the two. TikTok's association with CCP is horrifying, yes. Facebook's hands aren't clean either.
        notsuoh 6y ago
        There’s levels of clean.
        mola 6y ago
        No they just interfer with local politics via lobbying, i.e. buying politicians, i.e foreign agents.
      - 6y ago
  - ehsankia 6y ago
    I mean it obviously was, that was kinda my point. If they cared about user privacy they would've passed a user privacy bill instead. I should've phrased it "They pretend to care about national security and user privacy..."
  - phkahler 6y ago
    As one youtuber put it, if the CCP wanted to cause chaos in the US, one thing they could do is have an "accidental" data breach and disclosure of every TikTok users private communications. Or like FB use the platform to influence what people see in order to cause unrest. So yes? It's a geopolitical thing and not about user privacy.
    - oh_sigh 6y ago
      Surely the CCP could get better value for $75B rather than burning one of their tech stars to the ground.
      - phkahler 6y ago
        A data breach has rarely burned a company to the ground. The other option of using it for direct influence is probably a bigger threat anyway.
        3633735324 6y ago
        If you have a direct line to the youth of another country and your best plan is to embarrass them then you're incompetent. Sure, adults have been coming to tiktok more, but most of them are there for the content not the social network.
    - bigbubba 6y ago
      > [the CCP could] have an "accidental" data breach and disclosure of every TikTok users private communications. [...] So yes? It's a geopolitical thing and not about user privacy. That sounds like both.
      - phkahler 6y ago
        From an individuals point of view yes. But if the US government cared about our privacy they'd do something about FB, Amazon and Google.
    - sgc 6y ago
- paulmd 6y ago
  the problem is that unlike chemical compounds, no two companies have exactly identical business models. banning "specific" behaviors is the exact opposite of what you want, because then companies will rules-lawyer their way around it in the corporate equivalent of "I'm not touching you!" what you need is strong bans on general patterns of activity such that companies decide it's better not to try and find the exact limit and just stay the hell away from it. The model here is fincen "structuring" - it is illegal to avoid financial controls, and it is illegal to try and find ways to get around the monitoring regimes. If you think you've found a clever way to avoid it, that is itself illegal and they will fuck your shit up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structuring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structuring It's not a popular sentiment here on HN where many people's salaries depend on pretending not to understand it, but this is what GDPR gets exactly right. There isn't a prohibition on specific usages of data, there is a blanket ban on using private customer data for any purpose that is not directly related to the provision of serve. People pretend not to understand it because they want to keep doing the things that are prohibited but the regulations are actually quite clear and quite simple. Could the service be provided without the use of the data? If no, use it. If it could, don't use it, and don't collect it. That's the bright-line. If you don't attempt to push the limit, structuring style, then you won't get in trouble.

ehsankia 6y ago

Then make very specific company-agnostic behaviors illegal, like with Freon. They didn't say "we ban company X from making any fridges", it was a general ban. If there's a certain behavior that's problematic (still not sure what specifically you would be referring to here), then ban that, not handpicked companies. This is the TikTok crap all over again. They want to help national security and user privacy, but instead of banning data collection, they target TikTok specifically, because they know other US owned apps do very similar data collection.

RestlessMind 6y ago
> This is the TikTok crap all over again. They want to help national security and user privacy... Am I the only one who thinks that TikTok was more about geopolitics concerning US/China and much less about user privacy?
- vorpalhex 6y ago
  Facebook selling your data to advertisers is annoying. TikTok et al vacuuming up data to be stored by the CCP for things like blackmail[0] is horrifying and basically geopolitical chess moving to give them leverage on things like putting Muslims in detention camps [1]. Treating the two as equivalent is somewhere between intentionally ignorant or acting in bad faith. [0] - https://www.theepochtimes.com/china-has-a-database-on-americans-built-from-stolen-data_2876161.html https://www.theepochtimes.com/china-has-a-database-on-americ... [1] - https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/china-confirms-death-of-uighur-man-whose-family-says-was-held-in-xinjiang-camps/ar-BB19D1G7 https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/china-confirms-death-of...
  - inetknght 6y ago
    > Facebook selling your data to advertisers is annoying. Facebook selling your data to advertisers is also horrifying. American "businesses" accept foreign investments and money all the time. Nothing stops those same countries from buying data from Facebook. The only difference between that and TikTok is that money is exchanged. It's just as horrifying.
    - vorpalhex 6y ago
      Unlike the CCP, Facebook isn't literally harvesting organs [2] or implanting intelligence assets [3]. Facebook shouldn't be reckless with user data, but when it's users start getting black bagged and having their vital organs removed, then we can compare the two. Mind you, all the major foreign companies are already banned in China so they can't possibly be involved. [2] - https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests-organs-detainees-tribunal-concludes-n1018646 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests... [3] - https://thediplomat.com/2020/09/two-recent-alleged-episodes-of-chinese-espionage-raise-worrying-and-difficult-questions/ https://thediplomat.com/2020/09/two-recent-alleged-episodes-...
      - inetknght 6y ago
        > Facebook shouldn't be reckless with user data, but when it's users start getting black bagged and having their vital organs removed, then we can compare the two. TikTok's association with CCP is horrifying, yes. Facebook's hands aren't clean either.
        notsuoh 6y ago
        There’s levels of clean.
      - mola 6y ago
        No they just interfer with local politics via lobbying, i.e. buying politicians, i.e foreign agents.
    - 6y ago
- ehsankia 6y ago
  I mean it obviously was, that was kinda my point. If they cared about user privacy they would've passed a user privacy bill instead. I should've phrased it "They pretend to care about national security and user privacy..."
- phkahler 6y ago
  As one youtuber put it, if the CCP wanted to cause chaos in the US, one thing they could do is have an "accidental" data breach and disclosure of every TikTok users private communications. Or like FB use the platform to influence what people see in order to cause unrest. So yes? It's a geopolitical thing and not about user privacy.
  - oh_sigh 6y ago
    Surely the CCP could get better value for $75B rather than burning one of their tech stars to the ground.
    - phkahler 6y ago
      A data breach has rarely burned a company to the ground. The other option of using it for direct influence is probably a bigger threat anyway.
      - 3633735324 6y ago
        If you have a direct line to the youth of another country and your best plan is to embarrass them then you're incompetent. Sure, adults have been coming to tiktok more, but most of them are there for the content not the social network.
  - bigbubba 6y ago
    > [the CCP could] have an "accidental" data breach and disclosure of every TikTok users private communications. [...] So yes? It's a geopolitical thing and not about user privacy. That sounds like both.
    - phkahler 6y ago
      From an individuals point of view yes. But if the US government cared about our privacy they'd do something about FB, Amazon and Google.
  - sgc 6y ago
paulmd 6y ago
the problem is that unlike chemical compounds, no two companies have exactly identical business models. banning "specific" behaviors is the exact opposite of what you want, because then companies will rules-lawyer their way around it in the corporate equivalent of "I'm not touching you!" what you need is strong bans on general patterns of activity such that companies decide it's better not to try and find the exact limit and just stay the hell away from it. The model here is fincen "structuring" - it is illegal to avoid financial controls, and it is illegal to try and find ways to get around the monitoring regimes. If you think you've found a clever way to avoid it, that is itself illegal and they will fuck your shit up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structuring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structuring It's not a popular sentiment here on HN where many people's salaries depend on pretending not to understand it, but this is what GDPR gets exactly right. There isn't a prohibition on specific usages of data, there is a blanket ban on using private customer data for any purpose that is not directly related to the provision of serve. People pretend not to understand it because they want to keep doing the things that are prohibited but the regulations are actually quite clear and quite simple. Could the service be provided without the use of the data? If no, use it. If it could, don't use it, and don't collect it. That's the bright-line. If you don't attempt to push the limit, structuring style, then you won't get in trouble.