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This article is missing the one key datapoint that would allow me to evaluate whether or not I can grow my own food. How many cubic feet of soil, at what depth

This article is missing the one key datapoint that would allow me to evaluate whether or not I can grow my own food. How many cubic feet of soil, at what depth, do I need in order to stop purchasing food plants from the store, year-round? This needs to be clearly stated and addressed if people are going to be convinced to grow their own food. Yes, it's impossible to select a perfect answer for all climates, but it's absolutely possible to select an approximate answer for all estimates. To make this more accessible, I made up four arbitrary tiers that approximately separate "basil in a pot" from "an apple tree": Tier 1: Herbs — basil, thyme, etc. Tier 2: Greens — lettuce, dandelions, strawberries^ Tier 3: Buried foods — potatoes, carrots, beets, etc. Tier 4: Large plants — fruit trees, tea bushes, artichokes, squash, etc. ^ These are grouped by my mental approximation of difficulty level, lowest to highest — not by taxonomic distinction. Please don't derail with arguments about "fruit or vegetable". They're all food plants, Brant. One strawberry plant is about the size of a head of lettuce, and they both have easy root systems, so they're both in tier 2.

simgooder 6y ago
Thanks for your input! > How many cubic feet of soil, at what depth, do I need in order to stop purchasing food plants from the store, year-round. While this is a pipe-dream of many gardeners, it's not necessarily realistic. You would need at least a hyper-efficient acre of land (which would take a few years to design) to provide for a family and neighbours. I think it's a lot easier than we've been lead to believe. You can do it for free (or very cheap) and with very little "quality" inputs. I appreciate your input with this list! We will definitely take it into account. The beauty of plants is their ability to adapt. Obviously you need depth of soil for root crops, but herbs will grow in a yogurt container, and strawberries will grow in 4 inches of sand. Regarding your list, there's an important distinction to make here. While you don't want to argue about "fruit or vegetable" - one of the limiting factors in your list is actually growth habits of said plant. For instance strawberries will grow perennially, and thus will grow in sand with a handful of woodchips, or forest soil or compost -- whereas lettuce, will require a nutrient-rich soil with relative shelter from rain and sun. One of the principles we chase in permaculture is efficiency, via "stacking of functions": For example, I would grow many of things in your list together, in a way that would require only a large pot of soil, top-dressed throughout the year with whatever biomass waste you have on hand (grass clippings, leaves, etc). I'd plant a dwarf fruit tree in a large pot, surround with a rosemary shrub, plant the outer layer with strawberry and thyme to act as a ground-cover. This would require very little in regards to skill or input. The plants themselves carry the difficult tasks, such as pest control and mulch (keeping the moisture in the soil), by mimicking natural niches. Now, depending how much soil/space you have at your disposal will directly affect your output. That would be a concern for aspiring farmers -- not necessarily your backyard gardener!
- musingsole 6y ago
  Your response here has me very interested to read more posts in the future and hopefully see a permapeople community grow.
  - roboben 6y ago
    With your help it is possible :)
- floatingatoll 6y ago
  Okay, so, for #4 "no grocery shopping" you'd need an acre and maximum efficiency. Noted! I think there's a really interesting pair of problems here: 1) What's my microclimate? How much soil can I maintain with my available time? 2) What crops can I grow and maintain with my available time? I hope the framework I sketched out helps you consider those pair of questions. I don't know enough about soil to separate the tiers by 'ease of use', so to speak, but clearly you do and so the idea will be much better off with you than I :) Thanks for taking the time to reply.
PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
>How many cubic feet of soil, at what depth, do I need in order to stop purchasing food plants from the store, year-round? Nobody can provide that evaluation for you without quite a bit more data. Your latitude will make a huge difference to the answer. Your altitude will make quite a bit of difference to the answer. The amount of available water will make a large difference to the answer. Those 3 alone (and notice that none of them are equivalent to "climate" though they all play a role in determining that) mean that the answers will vary across a huge range. There's also the nature of the soil in question, another far from trivial issue. You can get some answers, however, from "How to Grow More Vegetables Than You Ever Thought Possible on Less Land Than You Can Imagine" by John Jeavons. Some of the answers can be very encouraging, some not so much. I did a weekend course with Jeavons a couple of decades ago in which he pointed out that a typical single olive tree will not even produce 1 cup of olive oil. The scale on which humanity now produces food is sometimes hard to imagine.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

simgooder 6y ago

Thanks for your input! > How many cubic feet of soil, at what depth, do I need in order to stop purchasing food plants from the store, year-round. While this is a pipe-dream of many gardeners, it's not necessarily realistic. You would need at least a hyper-efficient acre of land (which would take a few years to design) to provide for a family and neighbours. I think it's a lot easier than we've been lead to believe. You can do it for free (or very cheap) and with very little "quality" inputs. I appreciate your input with this list! We will definitely take it into account. The beauty of plants is their ability to adapt. Obviously you need depth of soil for root crops, but herbs will grow in a yogurt container, and strawberries will grow in 4 inches of sand. Regarding your list, there's an important distinction to make here. While you don't want to argue about "fruit or vegetable" - one of the limiting factors in your list is actually growth habits of said plant. For instance strawberries will grow perennially, and thus will grow in sand with a handful of woodchips, or forest soil or compost -- whereas lettuce, will require a nutrient-rich soil with relative shelter from rain and sun. One of the principles we chase in permaculture is efficiency, via "stacking of functions": For example, I would grow many of things in your list together, in a way that would require only a large pot of soil, top-dressed throughout the year with whatever biomass waste you have on hand (grass clippings, leaves, etc). I'd plant a dwarf fruit tree in a large pot, surround with a rosemary shrub, plant the outer layer with strawberry and thyme to act as a ground-cover. This would require very little in regards to skill or input. The plants themselves carry the difficult tasks, such as pest control and mulch (keeping the moisture in the soil), by mimicking natural niches. Now, depending how much soil/space you have at your disposal will directly affect your output. That would be a concern for aspiring farmers -- not necessarily your backyard gardener!

musingsole 6y ago
Your response here has me very interested to read more posts in the future and hopefully see a permapeople community grow.
- roboben 6y ago
  With your help it is possible :)
floatingatoll 6y ago
Okay, so, for #4 "no grocery shopping" you'd need an acre and maximum efficiency. Noted! I think there's a really interesting pair of problems here: 1) What's my microclimate? How much soil can I maintain with my available time? 2) What crops can I grow and maintain with my available time? I hope the framework I sketched out helps you consider those pair of questions. I don't know enough about soil to separate the tiers by 'ease of use', so to speak, but clearly you do and so the idea will be much better off with you than I :) Thanks for taking the time to reply.

PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago

>How many cubic feet of soil, at what depth, do I need in order to stop purchasing food plants from the store, year-round? Nobody can provide that evaluation for you without quite a bit more data. Your latitude will make a huge difference to the answer. Your altitude will make quite a bit of difference to the answer. The amount of available water will make a large difference to the answer. Those 3 alone (and notice that none of them are equivalent to "climate" though they all play a role in determining that) mean that the answers will vary across a huge range. There's also the nature of the soil in question, another far from trivial issue. You can get some answers, however, from "How to Grow More Vegetables Than You Ever Thought Possible on Less Land Than You Can Imagine" by John Jeavons. Some of the answers can be very encouraging, some not so much. I did a weekend course with Jeavons a couple of decades ago in which he pointed out that a typical single olive tree will not even produce 1 cup of olive oil. The scale on which humanity now produces food is sometimes hard to imagine.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]