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> Every baby step away from industrialization is a step towards sustainability. That's just plain wrong. Industrialization as it exists currently is bad becaus

> Every baby step away from industrialization is a step towards sustainability. That's just plain wrong. Industrialization as it exists currently is bad because its optimizing for profit. If environmental costs were factored in (short and longterm), then we'd arrive at a sustainable balance. A carbon tax is a good first measure. If we were, as you suggest, to revert from industrialization back to artisanship and manual labor we would produce a fraction of what we do now. That's senseless. Would you wish for every household to have to produce their own food, raise and butcher and skin their own animals, hand-mine their stones and construct their homes, carve out their own furniture, sew their own clothes...? Our living standards would plummet. The fact is that industrialization multiplies efficiency. We can arrive at a post-scarcity society whilst also being long term sustainable, even with current global populations. It's just a matter of optimizing for it (and not just immediate profit).

CommieDetector 6y ago
Communist detected! Deploy starvation memes!
bluntfang 6y ago
>as you suggest FYI, if I suggested anything at all it was that industrialization under capitalism is bad, and more people living a sustainable lifestyle will show that there's a way to survive without industrial capitalism. It's a baby step that shows people that it's possible. Not the end goal.
- eitland 6y ago
  > FYI, if I suggested anything at all it was that industrialization under capitalism is bad, Here is exactly what you wrote above: > Every baby step away from industrialization is a step towards sustainability. It is hard to interpret it in any way except that this is the outcome you wish for.
  - bluntfang 6y ago
    Then I resign that my communication failed. A baby step away from industrialization will allow people to connect with the world around them. So many people are disconnected from what non-processed food even looks, smells, or tastes like. Showing people that we don't have to eat the perfectly red, plump and tasteless tomato in exchange for a tasty, delicious, non-perfect tomato that they grew themselves helps show them that the world they've been conditioned to exist in isn't the only one available.
fuball63 6y ago
I agree with the premise of your position, but it is a bit of an exaggeration to say that everyone would be responsible for every task in society. Even in pre-industrial times people specialized. Towns had tanners, butchers, blacksmiths, farmers, carpenters, etc. I think what the contrast between this idea and the parent demonstrates the need for balance between the two extremes. We need to use the best parts of industrialization for efficiency and prosperity, but also lower consumption where it isn't necessary. Don't sew your own clothes, but repair them when they tear.
roboben 6y ago
replace "industrialization" with "industrialization as it is now" and you can agree! :)

CommieDetector 6y ago

Communist detected! Deploy starvation memes!

bluntfang 6y ago

>as you suggest FYI, if I suggested anything at all it was that industrialization under capitalism is bad, and more people living a sustainable lifestyle will show that there's a way to survive without industrial capitalism. It's a baby step that shows people that it's possible. Not the end goal.

eitland 6y ago
> FYI, if I suggested anything at all it was that industrialization under capitalism is bad, Here is exactly what you wrote above: > Every baby step away from industrialization is a step towards sustainability. It is hard to interpret it in any way except that this is the outcome you wish for.
- bluntfang 6y ago
  Then I resign that my communication failed. A baby step away from industrialization will allow people to connect with the world around them. So many people are disconnected from what non-processed food even looks, smells, or tastes like. Showing people that we don't have to eat the perfectly red, plump and tasteless tomato in exchange for a tasty, delicious, non-perfect tomato that they grew themselves helps show them that the world they've been conditioned to exist in isn't the only one available.

fuball63 6y ago

I agree with the premise of your position, but it is a bit of an exaggeration to say that everyone would be responsible for every task in society. Even in pre-industrial times people specialized. Towns had tanners, butchers, blacksmiths, farmers, carpenters, etc. I think what the contrast between this idea and the parent demonstrates the need for balance between the two extremes. We need to use the best parts of industrialization for efficiency and prosperity, but also lower consumption where it isn't necessary. Don't sew your own clothes, but repair them when they tear.

roboben 6y ago

replace "industrialization" with "industrialization as it is now" and you can agree! :)