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That's a very extreme position. I think consensus is that capitalism with carbon taxing is a step towards sustainability. A call for deindustrialization is so

by jopsen 6y ago

That's a very extreme position. I think consensus is that capitalism with carbon taxing is a step towards sustainability. A call for deindustrialization is so far fetched it's pointless. Edit: I do not assume the author advocates deindustrialization, presumably author just wanted to write a nice intro, to a fun hobby :)

bluntfang 6y ago
>A call for deindustrialization is so far fetched it's pointless. Can you show me who in this thread is calling for this?
- eitland 6y ago
  >>A call for deindustrialization is so far fetched it's pointless. > Can you show me who in this thread is calling for this? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24697463 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24697463
hosh 6y ago
The author, like myself, and others who incorporate permaculture design principles, advocates for decentralizing our food system for resiliency, regenerative growth, stronger hyperlocal communities, development of a better sense of place, and a sense of purpose. There are a lot of angry young people in this generation who felt lied to about their job prospects, or careers. They were told the mark of an adult was someone who can move out of the parent’s basement abd support yourself. Yet unless you can get an entry level job at least $60k a year in the US, you are already swimming against the current. A college degree is no guarantee of success. That wealth gap is growing, and the pandemic made the reality stark. The recession is effectively over for people with high income, but for those without, it continued to be a huge struggle. So some get bitter. Some get political, or even radicalized. Some want things to go back to how things used to be — in the 90s even. Others are now seeking solutions with universal basic income. The thing with permaculture design and its decentralized food system is that it can address some of that wealth inequality. If the methods were expanded to cover the remaining basic needs at the foundational layer of Maslow’s Heirarchy of Needs, then that would work a lot better than universal basic income. But one of the greatest characteristics of permaculture design is that it is decentralized. It does not require collective action. It can be framed as a hobby to get started. People who are implementing this doesn’t require that you change your views or beliefs, or that you get on board.
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
  >There are a lot of angry young people in this generation who felt lied to about their job prospects, or careers. They were told the mark of an adult was someone who can move out of the parent’s basement abd support yourself. Yet unless you can get an entry level job at least $60k a year in the US, you are already swimming against the current. A college degree is no guarantee of success. I understand this anger, and I have 3 young people as my own kids who feel this to varying degrees. But ... Until about a year ago, the median household income in the USA was about $56k/yr. That means that a substantial chunk of the country has "moved out the parent's basement and supports themselves" on less than $60k/yr. The problem as I see it is that the basics of "moving out of the basement" got confused with "being able to live in the most expensive real estate markets in the world", presumably because they also just happen to be really cool places to live and have lots of economic opportunity. The conflation of these two is therefore understandable, and is a reflection of our failure as a nation and as a society to ensure the economic opportunity and high quality of living are widely distributed (in terms of both demographics and geography). Our culture has also lied to our young people about what life for most people looks like. Movies, shows, social media filled with impressions not just edited but only representative (!) of the lives of the most priviledged people in society. A massively expanded set of components of the concept of what "middle class" means. The basics remain however: if you're just starting out in your working career, then the most expensive real estate in the US is off-limits to you unless you've gone into a line of work with outsize income. That still leaves most of the country available and very-to-somewhat affordable, albeit with reduced opportunities for satisfying or very renumerative work. But also much better chances of a much larger garden in which to try out permaculture !
- jopsen 6y ago
  Are you suggesting that people growing food for themselves could somehow serve the same function as basic income? Will we need carbon taxes for that? Because, we have labour intensive crops rotting in the fields, when prices are low, because harvesting costs too much (when prices on strawberries is low; or migrant workers aren't available). I'd like to see math where growing your own crops out performs a job at seven eleven. Note. I think it can be a great stress relief and a great hobby. But the economics of it, seems sketchy even if we had aggressive carbon taxing (you can't build a garden without materials).

by jopsen 6y ago

bluntfang 6y ago

>A call for deindustrialization is so far fetched it's pointless. Can you show me who in this thread is calling for this?

eitland 6y ago
>>A call for deindustrialization is so far fetched it's pointless. > Can you show me who in this thread is calling for this? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24697463 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24697463

hosh 6y ago

The author, like myself, and others who incorporate permaculture design principles, advocates for decentralizing our food system for resiliency, regenerative growth, stronger hyperlocal communities, development of a better sense of place, and a sense of purpose. There are a lot of angry young people in this generation who felt lied to about their job prospects, or careers. They were told the mark of an adult was someone who can move out of the parent’s basement abd support yourself. Yet unless you can get an entry level job at least $60k a year in the US, you are already swimming against the current. A college degree is no guarantee of success. That wealth gap is growing, and the pandemic made the reality stark. The recession is effectively over for people with high income, but for those without, it continued to be a huge struggle. So some get bitter. Some get political, or even radicalized. Some want things to go back to how things used to be — in the 90s even. Others are now seeking solutions with universal basic income. The thing with permaculture design and its decentralized food system is that it can address some of that wealth inequality. If the methods were expanded to cover the remaining basic needs at the foundational layer of Maslow’s Heirarchy of Needs, then that would work a lot better than universal basic income. But one of the greatest characteristics of permaculture design is that it is decentralized. It does not require collective action. It can be framed as a hobby to get started. People who are implementing this doesn’t require that you change your views or beliefs, or that you get on board.

PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
>There are a lot of angry young people in this generation who felt lied to about their job prospects, or careers. They were told the mark of an adult was someone who can move out of the parent’s basement abd support yourself. Yet unless you can get an entry level job at least $60k a year in the US, you are already swimming against the current. A college degree is no guarantee of success. I understand this anger, and I have 3 young people as my own kids who feel this to varying degrees. But ... Until about a year ago, the median household income in the USA was about $56k/yr. That means that a substantial chunk of the country has "moved out the parent's basement and supports themselves" on less than $60k/yr. The problem as I see it is that the basics of "moving out of the basement" got confused with "being able to live in the most expensive real estate markets in the world", presumably because they also just happen to be really cool places to live and have lots of economic opportunity. The conflation of these two is therefore understandable, and is a reflection of our failure as a nation and as a society to ensure the economic opportunity and high quality of living are widely distributed (in terms of both demographics and geography). Our culture has also lied to our young people about what life for most people looks like. Movies, shows, social media filled with impressions not just edited but only representative (!) of the lives of the most priviledged people in society. A massively expanded set of components of the concept of what "middle class" means. The basics remain however: if you're just starting out in your working career, then the most expensive real estate in the US is off-limits to you unless you've gone into a line of work with outsize income. That still leaves most of the country available and very-to-somewhat affordable, albeit with reduced opportunities for satisfying or very renumerative work. But also much better chances of a much larger garden in which to try out permaculture !
jopsen 6y ago
Are you suggesting that people growing food for themselves could somehow serve the same function as basic income? Will we need carbon taxes for that? Because, we have labour intensive crops rotting in the fields, when prices are low, because harvesting costs too much (when prices on strawberries is low; or migrant workers aren't available). I'd like to see math where growing your own crops out performs a job at seven eleven. Note. I think it can be a great stress relief and a great hobby. But the economics of it, seems sketchy even if we had aggressive carbon taxing (you can't build a garden without materials).