5 ms·

Exactly. I see this defeatism all the time regarding climate change too. It's OK to feel defeated. But why the hell would you spend energy to spread that defeat

by gspr 6y ago

Exactly. I see this defeatism all the time regarding climate change too. It's OK to feel defeated. But why the hell would you spend energy to spread that defeatism?!

GoblinSlayer 6y ago
To make it less questionable.
NateEag 6y ago
If you have been defeated, acknowledging it is crucial. It's hard to make progress while denying the actual nature of the situation. Not saying that's necessarily true in either of these situations, just that it's not a waste of energy to spread depressing truths.
- chrisweekly 6y ago
  "it's not a waste of energy to spread depressing truths." It certainly is, if those "truths" are not absolutes. Find a way to redirect your -- and others' -- energies toward something positive and constructive. Spreading doom and gloom, full stop? Always a waste.
  - NateEag 6y ago
    If you never move on to constructive action, that's a problem, for sure. However, telling a sad or difficult truth and stopping there is still a big improvement on pretending there was no issue in the first place.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - mulmen 6y ago
      You have presented a false choice. Saying negative things is just negative, full stop, as already stated. You can make this positive by suggesting a solution or asking someone qualified to suggest one and then helping them achieve it.
      - bigwavedave 6y ago
        > Saying negative things is just negative, full stop. I dunno, I'm not sure that's always an absolute. Example: your boss says the budget has been slashed and the department head will be downsizing the whole department by 50% in the coming months. This is very obviously a negative thing, but is your boss doing you a disservice by giving you a heads up? "Oh but he should give me guidance that I should work diligently but also prepare resumes and look into other options." Of course they should and it would be really nice if they also could find out for sure if your head is on the chopping block- but let me ask you this: even if your boss doesn't offer this very obvious advice or have any insight into the department head's persona non grata list, is knowing about this negative truth a net-negative for any employee this concerns? Of course not. Or even more relevant to HN: a very outgoing individual who loves the face-to-face environment of the office has just been told that the CEO has decided everyone will be 100% remote starting next week until 2022. Is being told this negative truth a net-negative for the social butterfly employee who now at least has a brief chance to wrap their head around the idea and mentally prepare for the change instead of being blindsided? Sometimes simply raising awareness that a negative thing is happening isn't a bad thing.
Quarrelsome 6y ago
> I see this defeatism all the time regarding climate change too. And I see people suggest that we aren't completely screwed because we got 10,000 people to walk down a street one time. Its an insane position and we need dramatic measures that the human race in its current form are unable to enact. * Climate change is going to happen because people like cars and supermarkets and nobody is asking anyone to _actually_ sacrifice anything. Much of the climate change movement is "someone else should do something about it" and those that cut themselves by going "off-grid" just make themselves quieter and are replaced by twenty more people with growing carbon footprints. * Online security is fucked because the vast majority of people can't handle more than a modicum of detail. Its on the technical class (i.e. the 5%-15%) to protect it by hook or crook. It will lose in a democratic battle to preserve it because people aren't interested enough to care and its too complex. My suggestion is that defeatism posits a better question to answer: "What do we do once we've lost?". The answer to that question yields something useful instead of the suspension of disbelief that the human race will suddenly turn over a new leaf.
- mulmen 6y ago
  It's needlessly negative to suggest we have to first "lose" to make positive change.
  - Quarrelsome 6y ago
    you're being facetious. We don't "have to first lose", its just the very likely outcome is that we will lose. That's not to say its not worth trying but that we should assume failure, otherwise you end up like the UK's Brexit negotiators who were "all-in" on the "oh they'll buckle as the time runs out" strategy and have no plan if that doesn't pan out beyond "so what now?". The basic strategy right now seems to run on the basic belief that human-kind will figure out its slowly destroying its habitat and change accordingly. I don't think we've even managed to all figure out the extent of the destruction let alone even start to change accordingly. What habits have we changed since the 1990s within our population to cut global carbon emissions? I'm struggling to glue a couple of things together. If I'm not mistaken, global air travel has _soared_ within that time window and everyone is just sitting on their hands under the mistaken belief that renewables will bail us out while we all still drive in a car to go to the supermarket.

by gspr 6y ago

Exactly. I see this defeatism all the time regarding climate change too. It's OK to feel defeated. But why the hell would you spend energy to spread that defeatism?!

GoblinSlayer 6y ago

To make it less questionable.

NateEag 6y ago

If you have been defeated, acknowledging it is crucial. It's hard to make progress while denying the actual nature of the situation. Not saying that's necessarily true in either of these situations, just that it's not a waste of energy to spread depressing truths.

chrisweekly 6y ago
"it's not a waste of energy to spread depressing truths." It certainly is, if those "truths" are not absolutes. Find a way to redirect your -- and others' -- energies toward something positive and constructive. Spreading doom and gloom, full stop? Always a waste.
- NateEag 6y ago
  If you never move on to constructive action, that's a problem, for sure. However, telling a sad or difficult truth and stopping there is still a big improvement on pretending there was no issue in the first place.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - mulmen 6y ago
    You have presented a false choice. Saying negative things is just negative, full stop, as already stated. You can make this positive by suggesting a solution or asking someone qualified to suggest one and then helping them achieve it.
    - bigwavedave 6y ago
      > Saying negative things is just negative, full stop. I dunno, I'm not sure that's always an absolute. Example: your boss says the budget has been slashed and the department head will be downsizing the whole department by 50% in the coming months. This is very obviously a negative thing, but is your boss doing you a disservice by giving you a heads up? "Oh but he should give me guidance that I should work diligently but also prepare resumes and look into other options." Of course they should and it would be really nice if they also could find out for sure if your head is on the chopping block- but let me ask you this: even if your boss doesn't offer this very obvious advice or have any insight into the department head's persona non grata list, is knowing about this negative truth a net-negative for any employee this concerns? Of course not. Or even more relevant to HN: a very outgoing individual who loves the face-to-face environment of the office has just been told that the CEO has decided everyone will be 100% remote starting next week until 2022. Is being told this negative truth a net-negative for the social butterfly employee who now at least has a brief chance to wrap their head around the idea and mentally prepare for the change instead of being blindsided? Sometimes simply raising awareness that a negative thing is happening isn't a bad thing.

Quarrelsome 6y ago

> I see this defeatism all the time regarding climate change too. And I see people suggest that we aren't completely screwed because we got 10,000 people to walk down a street one time. Its an insane position and we need dramatic measures that the human race in its current form are unable to enact. * Climate change is going to happen because people like cars and supermarkets and nobody is asking anyone to _actually_ sacrifice anything. Much of the climate change movement is "someone else should do something about it" and those that cut themselves by going "off-grid" just make themselves quieter and are replaced by twenty more people with growing carbon footprints. * Online security is fucked because the vast majority of people can't handle more than a modicum of detail. Its on the technical class (i.e. the 5%-15%) to protect it by hook or crook. It will lose in a democratic battle to preserve it because people aren't interested enough to care and its too complex. My suggestion is that defeatism posits a better question to answer: "What do we do once we've lost?". The answer to that question yields something useful instead of the suspension of disbelief that the human race will suddenly turn over a new leaf.

mulmen 6y ago
It's needlessly negative to suggest we have to first "lose" to make positive change.
- Quarrelsome 6y ago
  you're being facetious. We don't "have to first lose", its just the very likely outcome is that we will lose. That's not to say its not worth trying but that we should assume failure, otherwise you end up like the UK's Brexit negotiators who were "all-in" on the "oh they'll buckle as the time runs out" strategy and have no plan if that doesn't pan out beyond "so what now?". The basic strategy right now seems to run on the basic belief that human-kind will figure out its slowly destroying its habitat and change accordingly. I don't think we've even managed to all figure out the extent of the destruction let alone even start to change accordingly. What habits have we changed since the 1990s within our population to cut global carbon emissions? I'm struggling to glue a couple of things together. If I'm not mistaken, global air travel has _soared_ within that time window and everyone is just sitting on their hands under the mistaken belief that renewables will bail us out while we all still drive in a car to go to the supermarket.