4 ms·

What i don't get, yes you can force Facebook to implement Backdoors, but how would you do that with a opensource project like Matrix or even the full opensource

by nix23 6y ago

What i don't get, yes you can force Facebook to implement Backdoors, but how would you do that with a opensource project like Matrix or even the full opensource Android?

giantDinosaur 6y ago
Many options: - block access ala GFW, ensuring that most people will have difficulty accessing it or using it - block access to any data you cannot decrypt or from an endpoint you cannot backdoor - go after creators and ensure some kind of backdoor is inherent to the project - shut down projects by exerting pressure on developers - run some kind of propaganda campaign on the evils of using unsanctioned software (supporting terrorism etc.) - do nothing, knowing that most users will avoid using anything that isn't one of the major web platforms
- nix23 6y ago
  >go after creators and ensure some kind of backdoor is inherent to the project >shut down projects by exerting pressure on developers The developer probably just going to the press with that, no need to damage your own private centric project, sure the NSA can say they never did that so the developers can ignore it OR they openly say it was them, then the project just can change the country. >run some kind of propaganda campaign on the evils of using unsanctioned software (supporting terrorism etc.) >do nothing, knowing that most users will avoid using anything that isn't one of the major web platforms Those are probably the only viable solutions, but on the other hand it's pure marketing for the product, like banning telegram in Russia.
  - zepto 6y ago
    What is the developer going to the press with?
    - nix23 6y ago
      Publication
      - zepto 6y ago
        what are they going to publish, and why?
        nix23 6y ago
        >shut down projects by exerting pressure on developers Because i don't like pressure from a Secret Services...do you? OK with one exception...Xenia Onatopp
        zepto 6y ago
        Ok, but how is the press involved in all this? You think the press protects people against pressure from secret services?
- mr__y 6y ago
  >- block access ala GFW, ensuring that most people will have difficulty accessing it or using it depending on sofistication of that solution you could imagine some forms of tunnelling to be efficient against that (IP-over-X). Then of course due to the complexity this workaround will be used by a tiny fraction of users. >- block access to any data you cannot decrypt or from an endpoint you cannot backdoor steganography would be a solution to this, you can decrypt the cat pictures I'm exchanging with friends but you may not be able to notice that those images have hidden content (which may also be encrypted) >- do nothing, knowing that most users will avoid using anything that isn't one of the major web platforms this seems to be a guaranteed-to-succeed solution. Probably much better than >- run some kind of propaganda campaign on the evils of using unsanctioned software (supporting terrorism etc.) since there is always a risk that this may backfire and encourage resistance in some groups
roblabla 6y ago
You enforce it on the main providers. For Android, force Google to supply the backdoor (In Google Play Services), for Matrix force the hosted Element.io instance to provide it. Even if the project is open source and development is distributed, there is often a major entity behind it driving it on which the requirements can be enforced.
- nix23 6y ago
  >For Android, force Google to supply the backdoor (In Google Play Services), Again i was talking about the opensource android, not the googlified closed version. >for Matrix force the hosted Element.io instance to provide it How? If they are not US Citizens?
LatteLazy 6y ago
It's only important to break thinks like matrix if you want to catch dedicated criminals. If you're just trying to sway elections and blackmail people then Facebook (WhatsApp) , Gmail, etc more than covers what you need. Plus if you really really want to know what's happening there, call the NSA. They'll send a few chaps to join the matrix dev community. Or they'll use other tools to access the machines in question. And you can do that to the 0.01% of people that actually switch after mainstream tools become insecure in a way you can't when there are billions of people using encryption by default.
- nix23 6y ago
  >Plus if you really really want to know what's happening there, call the NSA Not sure if they give me any information as a Swiss citizen :-) >They'll send a few chaps to join the matrix dev community That's probably more on the James Bond side of reality >Or they'll use other tools to access the machines in question Yes that's what they probably will do, but that is targeting and not a Backdoor/break encryption by law.
  - LatteLazy 6y ago
    We know from Snowden that the NSA actively and covertly submitted code to open source projects including Android\Linux: https://www.androidauthority.com/nsa-android-code-239118/ https://www.androidauthority.com/nsa-android-code-239118/ They're also involved in the Coreboot alternative BIOS project: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/nsa-contributes-low-level-stm-coreboot,39704.html https://www.tomshardware.com/news/nsa-contributes-low-level-... One of the key revelations from Snowden was that all that stuff that seemed far fetched or paranoid to us, wasn't just happening, it was routine and much more advanced stuff was also going on. It's also much easier to target Matrix etc when you don't have to target all of Facebook because you have a backdoor there. Reducing the NSAs workload by 99% makes the other 1% much easier because they have 100 times the resources to spend on it. You should also consider as a swiss citizen that US law is increasingly world law. If you sit in Switzerland and contribute to a project banned by US law, they may well have you extradited to spend the rest of your life in a US prison. They're doing that to Assange right now. They've done it to others as well. Locking up foreigners is quite in-style in the US at the moment... I haven't read the bill, so I don't know what the criminal sanctions are for failing to provide backdoors... Best of luck
nmlnn 6y ago
Maybe force isn't required because they have some secret P=NP proof.
- nix23 6y ago
  Yes all the Gandalf's work there...right
dr-detroit 6y ago
systemd
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
Shorel 6y ago
The most interesting and important parts of the smartphone stack are closed source. The parts that control doing calls, connecting to cells, etc. They are called "Radio" firmware.
- nix23 6y ago
  My question was about Open source software, not closed source corporation BS.

by nix23 6y ago

What i don't get, yes you can force Facebook to implement Backdoors, but how would you do that with a opensource project like Matrix or even the full opensource Android?

giantDinosaur 6y ago

Many options: - block access ala GFW, ensuring that most people will have difficulty accessing it or using it - block access to any data you cannot decrypt or from an endpoint you cannot backdoor - go after creators and ensure some kind of backdoor is inherent to the project - shut down projects by exerting pressure on developers - run some kind of propaganda campaign on the evils of using unsanctioned software (supporting terrorism etc.) - do nothing, knowing that most users will avoid using anything that isn't one of the major web platforms

nix23 6y ago
>go after creators and ensure some kind of backdoor is inherent to the project >shut down projects by exerting pressure on developers The developer probably just going to the press with that, no need to damage your own private centric project, sure the NSA can say they never did that so the developers can ignore it OR they openly say it was them, then the project just can change the country. >run some kind of propaganda campaign on the evils of using unsanctioned software (supporting terrorism etc.) >do nothing, knowing that most users will avoid using anything that isn't one of the major web platforms Those are probably the only viable solutions, but on the other hand it's pure marketing for the product, like banning telegram in Russia.
- zepto 6y ago
  What is the developer going to the press with?
  - nix23 6y ago
    Publication
    - zepto 6y ago
      what are they going to publish, and why?
      - nix23 6y ago
        >shut down projects by exerting pressure on developers Because i don't like pressure from a Secret Services...do you? OK with one exception...Xenia Onatopp
        zepto 6y ago
        Ok, but how is the press involved in all this? You think the press protects people against pressure from secret services?
mr__y 6y ago
>- block access ala GFW, ensuring that most people will have difficulty accessing it or using it depending on sofistication of that solution you could imagine some forms of tunnelling to be efficient against that (IP-over-X). Then of course due to the complexity this workaround will be used by a tiny fraction of users. >- block access to any data you cannot decrypt or from an endpoint you cannot backdoor steganography would be a solution to this, you can decrypt the cat pictures I'm exchanging with friends but you may not be able to notice that those images have hidden content (which may also be encrypted) >- do nothing, knowing that most users will avoid using anything that isn't one of the major web platforms this seems to be a guaranteed-to-succeed solution. Probably much better than >- run some kind of propaganda campaign on the evils of using unsanctioned software (supporting terrorism etc.) since there is always a risk that this may backfire and encourage resistance in some groups

roblabla 6y ago

You enforce it on the main providers. For Android, force Google to supply the backdoor (In Google Play Services), for Matrix force the hosted Element.io instance to provide it. Even if the project is open source and development is distributed, there is often a major entity behind it driving it on which the requirements can be enforced.

nix23 6y ago
>For Android, force Google to supply the backdoor (In Google Play Services), Again i was talking about the opensource android, not the googlified closed version. >for Matrix force the hosted Element.io instance to provide it How? If they are not US Citizens?

LatteLazy 6y ago

It's only important to break thinks like matrix if you want to catch dedicated criminals. If you're just trying to sway elections and blackmail people then Facebook (WhatsApp) , Gmail, etc more than covers what you need. Plus if you really really want to know what's happening there, call the NSA. They'll send a few chaps to join the matrix dev community. Or they'll use other tools to access the machines in question. And you can do that to the 0.01% of people that actually switch after mainstream tools become insecure in a way you can't when there are billions of people using encryption by default.

nix23 6y ago
>Plus if you really really want to know what's happening there, call the NSA Not sure if they give me any information as a Swiss citizen :-) >They'll send a few chaps to join the matrix dev community That's probably more on the James Bond side of reality >Or they'll use other tools to access the machines in question Yes that's what they probably will do, but that is targeting and not a Backdoor/break encryption by law.
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  We know from Snowden that the NSA actively and covertly submitted code to open source projects including Android\Linux: https://www.androidauthority.com/nsa-android-code-239118/ https://www.androidauthority.com/nsa-android-code-239118/ They're also involved in the Coreboot alternative BIOS project: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/nsa-contributes-low-level-stm-coreboot,39704.html https://www.tomshardware.com/news/nsa-contributes-low-level-... One of the key revelations from Snowden was that all that stuff that seemed far fetched or paranoid to us, wasn't just happening, it was routine and much more advanced stuff was also going on. It's also much easier to target Matrix etc when you don't have to target all of Facebook because you have a backdoor there. Reducing the NSAs workload by 99% makes the other 1% much easier because they have 100 times the resources to spend on it. You should also consider as a swiss citizen that US law is increasingly world law. If you sit in Switzerland and contribute to a project banned by US law, they may well have you extradited to spend the rest of your life in a US prison. They're doing that to Assange right now. They've done it to others as well. Locking up foreigners is quite in-style in the US at the moment... I haven't read the bill, so I don't know what the criminal sanctions are for failing to provide backdoors... Best of luck

nmlnn 6y ago

Maybe force isn't required because they have some secret P=NP proof.

nix23 6y ago
Yes all the Gandalf's work there...right

dr-detroit 6y ago

systemd

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

Shorel 6y ago

The most interesting and important parts of the smartphone stack are closed source. The parts that control doing calls, connecting to cells, etc. They are called "Radio" firmware.

nix23 6y ago
My question was about Open source software, not closed source corporation BS.