8 ms·

I would love for people to steal Kakoune's text editor, I think it's an improvement over Vim for modal editing. I've been a longtime user of the Vim style of e

by Arcuru 6y ago

I would love for people to steal Kakoune's text editor, I think it's an improvement over Vim for modal editing. I've been a longtime user of the Vim style of editing, but I checked out Kakoune several years ago and was impressed. I tried it for a week or two and was starting to prefer it over Vim. The problem is that while Kakoune is a very good competitor to Vim the program, I am only rarely in need of a terminal based editor. The vast majority of my time is spent in full fledged IDEs or in Web-based editors, all of whom have Vim plugins so that I can consistently use the same style. It's always bummed me out a little bit. I spend the majority of my work days using Vim keys for editing text, and there is an editing style I'd actually prefer to use but I can't because there isn't already widespread adoption. There's not enough benefit for me to learn it if I can't use it everywhere, and switching back and forth with Vim seems extremely difficult.

ternaryoperator 6y ago
> I spend the majority of my work days using Vim keys for editing text, and there is an editing style I'd actually prefer to use but I can't because there isn't already widespread adoption. Unless your preferred style has some really unusual key combos, it seems to me that most IDEs and editors today enable you to configure your keys just the way you want them.
- syntheticnature 6y ago
  You might not realize that when it comes to vi keys, or I assume (per context) Kakoune -- it's the ability to compose commands out of smaller bits. If the editor doesn't support the appropriate composition elements, you can't get there with simple key-remappings, for even if you (vi-wise) tell it 'dd' deletes a line, that won't get you 'd$' for delete-to-end of line, 'df)' for delete-to-next-parenthesis, etc. More in-depth commentary: https://medium.com/@mkozlows/why-atom-cant-replace-vim-433852f4b4d1 https://medium.com/@mkozlows/why-atom-cant-replace-vim-43385... Sadly, because I'm someone who learned vi in part because it's nearly everywhere and fits on the embedded devices I often develop for easily, a new editor isn't as interesting because it isn't everywhere.
  - ternaryoperator 6y ago
    Ah, I see the problem. Thanks!
  - b0rsuk 6y ago
    Applications that are not integrated into Emacs sometimes implement 'vim keys' for interface. If you get used to kakoune keys, you may struggle each time you use them.
  - boogies 6y ago
    D and C (shift + d/c) also delete to the end of the line (at least in vis and vim.tiny), by the way.
dpc_pw 6y ago
I really regret every trying Kakoune. It was totally not worth it, but I just can't go back now. I've switched from Vim to Kakoune 3 years ago, and lack of support for this modal editing style elsewhere is really frustrating. It is better than Vim's, but in practice that's not a significant difference, and the pain of switching back and forth is something I'm agonizing over all the time. BTW. The exact kakoune modal editing mode is not even all that flawless. The way x and X work on empty lines is infuriating, and I am actually using a personal fork of kakoune to fix it. https://github.com/dpc/kakoune-dpc https://github.com/dpc/kakoune-dpc . I went so far as prototyping a spinoff of Kakoune: https://github.com/dpc/breeze https://github.com/dpc/breeze to look for improvement, but building a full-featured text editor is a lot of work, and I it's not like it's going to fix the problem of switching.
- tux1968 6y ago
  Would you say a few words on what makes Kakoune modal editing better than Vim's?
  - kakouneUserTmp 6y ago
    Not the same guy but I'm a convert from vim also. >Would you say a few words on what makes Kakoune modal editing better than Vim's? I guess the big difference is multiple selections. In Kakoune Normal mode you can select multiple selections, and your normal mode commands operate on all those selections at once, and if you switch to insert mode you can insert text at all of those multiple cursors. I had a paragraph with examples that I just deleted because it had sentences like "you would simply type s;<enter>b&" and that makes you sound like a crazy cultist. A better endorsement is maybe: where I would in the past write a script in python or awk to get info from a log or a csv I usually just jump straight to kakoune and edit the file down to the data I want.
    - b0rsuk 6y ago
      And I consider multiple selections a flaw, a poor man's search&replace. Particularly with neovim's set inccommand=split (live substitution). Vim's confirmation prompts make it more comfortable, as well as off-screen matches it shows. Multiple selections are inherently limited to a single screen or you won't be able to see what you're doing. Verdict: a gimmick.
simias 6y ago
If it's so painful for you, maybe try dropping the IDEs and web editors? To be clear I know that there's nothing wrong with liking IDEs, I'm not that much of a purist, but there's also nothing wrong with not using them. Over the past decade I've worked with all kinds of technologies, from the web to bootloaders, from Perl to Rust and I've done it all without using any IDE. Again, I'm not advocating against IDEs out of principle, it's just that if your current setup is so frustrating for you at the moment I really think you should consider something a bit radical to improve it. When something in my code workflow feels "sticky" I always find that it's worth taking the time to find a solution, after all we spend so much time using these tools...
- sumtechguy 6y ago
  I personalty use both types. IDEs have their place. So do the 'minimal' editors. The biggest gripe I have with modal editors like vim is they seem to adhere to the path of most surprise instead of least. With most IDEs they try to get you into moving text into a file quickly. A modal editor you first have to learn how to just change modes. I can not number the amount of times I started typing and had the conclusion 'I have no idea what I just did to my document and what state the editor is in now'. Which is maximum surprise :) I get why they were made in the first place. They are a thing of teletype machines. Yet we keep this mode style editor around. It is interesting. I personally am kind of stuck with this right now due to the way my work manages machines. So I am stuck with whatever the box has on it. So minimal customization is allowed.
  - simias 6y ago
    There's definitely a steeper learning curve to modal editor, that's for sure. And vim is pretty bad at communicating what state it's on, especially with the default config. But my point is not so much about modality (I used emacs for a very long time before switching to vim) it's more that the parent seems to really like this kakoune editor, so why wouldn't he just use it full time instead of switching constantly?

by Arcuru 6y ago

ternaryoperator 6y ago

> I spend the majority of my work days using Vim keys for editing text, and there is an editing style I'd actually prefer to use but I can't because there isn't already widespread adoption. Unless your preferred style has some really unusual key combos, it seems to me that most IDEs and editors today enable you to configure your keys just the way you want them.

syntheticnature 6y ago
You might not realize that when it comes to vi keys, or I assume (per context) Kakoune -- it's the ability to compose commands out of smaller bits. If the editor doesn't support the appropriate composition elements, you can't get there with simple key-remappings, for even if you (vi-wise) tell it 'dd' deletes a line, that won't get you 'd$' for delete-to-end of line, 'df)' for delete-to-next-parenthesis, etc. More in-depth commentary: https://medium.com/@mkozlows/why-atom-cant-replace-vim-433852f4b4d1 https://medium.com/@mkozlows/why-atom-cant-replace-vim-43385... Sadly, because I'm someone who learned vi in part because it's nearly everywhere and fits on the embedded devices I often develop for easily, a new editor isn't as interesting because it isn't everywhere.
- ternaryoperator 6y ago
  Ah, I see the problem. Thanks!
- b0rsuk 6y ago
  Applications that are not integrated into Emacs sometimes implement 'vim keys' for interface. If you get used to kakoune keys, you may struggle each time you use them.
- boogies 6y ago
  D and C (shift + d/c) also delete to the end of the line (at least in vis and vim.tiny), by the way.

dpc_pw 6y ago

I really regret every trying Kakoune. It was totally not worth it, but I just can't go back now. I've switched from Vim to Kakoune 3 years ago, and lack of support for this modal editing style elsewhere is really frustrating. It is better than Vim's, but in practice that's not a significant difference, and the pain of switching back and forth is something I'm agonizing over all the time. BTW. The exact kakoune modal editing mode is not even all that flawless. The way x and X work on empty lines is infuriating, and I am actually using a personal fork of kakoune to fix it. https://github.com/dpc/kakoune-dpc https://github.com/dpc/kakoune-dpc . I went so far as prototyping a spinoff of Kakoune: https://github.com/dpc/breeze https://github.com/dpc/breeze to look for improvement, but building a full-featured text editor is a lot of work, and I it's not like it's going to fix the problem of switching.

tux1968 6y ago
Would you say a few words on what makes Kakoune modal editing better than Vim's?
- kakouneUserTmp 6y ago
  Not the same guy but I'm a convert from vim also. >Would you say a few words on what makes Kakoune modal editing better than Vim's? I guess the big difference is multiple selections. In Kakoune Normal mode you can select multiple selections, and your normal mode commands operate on all those selections at once, and if you switch to insert mode you can insert text at all of those multiple cursors. I had a paragraph with examples that I just deleted because it had sentences like "you would simply type s;<enter>b&" and that makes you sound like a crazy cultist. A better endorsement is maybe: where I would in the past write a script in python or awk to get info from a log or a csv I usually just jump straight to kakoune and edit the file down to the data I want.
  - b0rsuk 6y ago
    And I consider multiple selections a flaw, a poor man's search&replace. Particularly with neovim's set inccommand=split (live substitution). Vim's confirmation prompts make it more comfortable, as well as off-screen matches it shows. Multiple selections are inherently limited to a single screen or you won't be able to see what you're doing. Verdict: a gimmick.

simias 6y ago

If it's so painful for you, maybe try dropping the IDEs and web editors? To be clear I know that there's nothing wrong with liking IDEs, I'm not that much of a purist, but there's also nothing wrong with not using them. Over the past decade I've worked with all kinds of technologies, from the web to bootloaders, from Perl to Rust and I've done it all without using any IDE. Again, I'm not advocating against IDEs out of principle, it's just that if your current setup is so frustrating for you at the moment I really think you should consider something a bit radical to improve it. When something in my code workflow feels "sticky" I always find that it's worth taking the time to find a solution, after all we spend so much time using these tools...

sumtechguy 6y ago
I personalty use both types. IDEs have their place. So do the 'minimal' editors. The biggest gripe I have with modal editors like vim is they seem to adhere to the path of most surprise instead of least. With most IDEs they try to get you into moving text into a file quickly. A modal editor you first have to learn how to just change modes. I can not number the amount of times I started typing and had the conclusion 'I have no idea what I just did to my document and what state the editor is in now'. Which is maximum surprise :) I get why they were made in the first place. They are a thing of teletype machines. Yet we keep this mode style editor around. It is interesting. I personally am kind of stuck with this right now due to the way my work manages machines. So I am stuck with whatever the box has on it. So minimal customization is allowed.
- simias 6y ago
  There's definitely a steeper learning curve to modal editor, that's for sure. And vim is pretty bad at communicating what state it's on, especially with the default config. But my point is not so much about modality (I used emacs for a very long time before switching to vim) it's more that the parent seems to really like this kakoune editor, so why wouldn't he just use it full time instead of switching constantly?