7 ms·

In one paragraph you've conveyed my point better than I could across multiple comments. This is the heart of what I was getting at. This, and the fact that the

In one paragraph you've conveyed my point better than I could across multiple comments. This is the heart of what I was getting at. This, and the fact that the HN demographic, mostly being techies, seem to be a bit disconnected from what real life looks like to 80%+ of the population of the world. A few instances per year of not coming in to work due to poor sleep or having to order Uber wouldn't just inconvenicence them - it would completely destroy their lives along with their children/families. People are doing what they need to do to survive and look after their loved ones.

spike021 6y ago
That's quite a reach and a bad take. I've only been in the full-time tech industry for about 3.5 years. Before then I was working hourly jobs to make ends meet, including working half time or more while studying full-time in college, working during high school, etc. This so I could pay rent and tuition with minimal, if any, aid. I couldn't even afford a car until after graduating from university. I was walking or taking public transportation everywhere prior to finally getting a car. I won't disagree that people in SV can be snobby but let's not jump to conclusions here.
- missosoup 6y ago
  > I couldn't even afford a car until after graduating from university. > I was walking or taking public transportation everywhere prior to finally getting a car. I had to afford a car in order to be able to get to work when I got my first job. Taking public transport would be a 4 hour journey in each direction (assuming I get to each transit point on time, assuming everything arrives on time). I couldn't afford the car by a long shot. I ended up asking friends to lend me money and taking a loan that ended up with me paying like 3x the value by the time it was done. And the car I got was a total piece of shit which ended up costing multiples of its original price to keep operating, but that was the only way for me to keep the job and start climbing the life ladder, so I sucked it up. You won the demographic lottery of being born in circumstances where you had the option to walk and take public transportation everywhere you need to. Most people have not won that lottery. I'm 0% SJW but I think you seriously have no idea of how privileged you are just through the random circumstances of how and when and to whom you were born, compared to the average person. Having climbed from societal rock-bottom to a decent position in the tech industry, my mind is constantly blown by the fact that the average techie thinks their life is anything like what the vast majority of people on this planet are dealing with. I'm not saying all this to win some victimhood points. I'm saying all this to try to get across to you that having the ability to catch PT or walk to everywhere you need to get to without it literally taking up 100% of your waking time is a huge privilege that you won in the random lottery of life. A privilege that you're not even acknowledging or aware of. Most people didn't roll as high as you in that lottery, so they take the 0.0000001% (or whatever) chance of death to drive to work in 1 hour each time they wake up tired, instead of the 100% chance of having a mental breakdown due to an 8hr commute time, etc. And again, every state in every developed nation is fully aware of this, has researched this, and has crunched the numbers on this. And not a single one in the world has acted to prohibit it. Because they are all aware that doing so would result in more harm than good.
  - spike021 6y ago
    I think this discussion is becoming rather pointless for the overall discourse about this singular topic, so I'll just leave with this. >Having climbed from societal rock-bottom to a decent position in the tech industry, my mind is constantly blown by the fact that the average techie thinks their life is anything like what the vast majority of this planet are dealing with. I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be, here? You say that I, and other like-minded people, are just "average techies" despite literally just explaining that some of us too had our own challenges. I think it's okay to admit that nearly everybody has had their share of challenging backgrounds. Some people's privileges are the other's disadvantages and so on. That much is obvious. But aside from that. Backgrounds aside. Driving when you know you have a constant issue of falling asleep, getting drowsy, all of the above is unsafe. Even if you have priorities that you place above your own health/well-being, the problem with having those issues and still choosing to drive is that you are now deciding how others will be affected by your decision. The moment you begin endangering other people's lives is the same moment that backgrounds, poorly-disadvantaged or not, become meaningless. Because I highly doubt some victim's family is going to be impressed that you or someone else knowingly chose to drive repeatedly while acknowledging they would not be fully aware of what they were doing just because of working conditions.
    - missosoup 6y ago
      > The moment you begin endangering other people's lives is the same moment that backgrounds, poorly-disadvantaged or not, become meaningless. Spoken life someone who never had to decide between rolling the 0.000001% chance dice on driving to work tired, and their kids going hungry or potentially getting taken away if they lose their job. People do what they need to do to survive and take care of their loved ones. People will absolutely risk their lives and those of others in order to protect their kids at all cost, even when facing much worse odds. That's a constant in life. No amount of moral posturing will change that. I'm not saying their actions are 'right', just saying they're an inevitable outcome of the society we have built. Efficiently demonstrating my point - some people on HN live in a bubble of privilege and have no idea what real life is like for the vast majority of the population. I'm just curious, with all the moral posturing - realistically, what would you suggest that people do when after a long shift at a blue collar job they realize they might be too tired to safely drive home. Do they sleep at their workplace? How does that transition into them needing to be back at work, showered, dressed, etc. by 9am the next morning? What are the actual logistics of this concept here? And how do you reconcile all this moral posturing and the impact of banning drivers who experience this (up to 50% of the entire population of developed nations by some polling) vs. the fact that we now have a pretty cheap car technology that turns that 0.000001% dice roll into a 1e-20 one.
scarmig 6y ago
In an earlier life, I worked in the trucking industry. If you refused to drive anytime you were fatigued, you would not be successful in the industry (one reason I am very glad to not be doing that anymore; it's also one of the most dangerous occupations out there, partly for that reason). I think that lots of the people here have never worked a non-privileged job in their lives.
- spike021 6y ago
  I've seen the results of this first-hand when a big rig about 10 car lengths ahead of me on I-5 abruptly began moving from the right lane through the center median and into the lanes of oncoming traffic. He slammed into a pickup truck and killed that truck's occupant. I had to be called in as a witness of the incident by the victim and trucking company's attorneys. I think there's a strong difference between (rightfully so) blaming the companies that force this environment and the people who are just trying to make a living safely.

spike021 6y ago

That's quite a reach and a bad take. I've only been in the full-time tech industry for about 3.5 years. Before then I was working hourly jobs to make ends meet, including working half time or more while studying full-time in college, working during high school, etc. This so I could pay rent and tuition with minimal, if any, aid. I couldn't even afford a car until after graduating from university. I was walking or taking public transportation everywhere prior to finally getting a car. I won't disagree that people in SV can be snobby but let's not jump to conclusions here.

missosoup 6y ago
> I couldn't even afford a car until after graduating from university. > I was walking or taking public transportation everywhere prior to finally getting a car. I had to afford a car in order to be able to get to work when I got my first job. Taking public transport would be a 4 hour journey in each direction (assuming I get to each transit point on time, assuming everything arrives on time). I couldn't afford the car by a long shot. I ended up asking friends to lend me money and taking a loan that ended up with me paying like 3x the value by the time it was done. And the car I got was a total piece of shit which ended up costing multiples of its original price to keep operating, but that was the only way for me to keep the job and start climbing the life ladder, so I sucked it up. You won the demographic lottery of being born in circumstances where you had the option to walk and take public transportation everywhere you need to. Most people have not won that lottery. I'm 0% SJW but I think you seriously have no idea of how privileged you are just through the random circumstances of how and when and to whom you were born, compared to the average person. Having climbed from societal rock-bottom to a decent position in the tech industry, my mind is constantly blown by the fact that the average techie thinks their life is anything like what the vast majority of people on this planet are dealing with. I'm not saying all this to win some victimhood points. I'm saying all this to try to get across to you that having the ability to catch PT or walk to everywhere you need to get to without it literally taking up 100% of your waking time is a huge privilege that you won in the random lottery of life. A privilege that you're not even acknowledging or aware of. Most people didn't roll as high as you in that lottery, so they take the 0.0000001% (or whatever) chance of death to drive to work in 1 hour each time they wake up tired, instead of the 100% chance of having a mental breakdown due to an 8hr commute time, etc. And again, every state in every developed nation is fully aware of this, has researched this, and has crunched the numbers on this. And not a single one in the world has acted to prohibit it. Because they are all aware that doing so would result in more harm than good.
- spike021 6y ago
  I think this discussion is becoming rather pointless for the overall discourse about this singular topic, so I'll just leave with this. >Having climbed from societal rock-bottom to a decent position in the tech industry, my mind is constantly blown by the fact that the average techie thinks their life is anything like what the vast majority of this planet are dealing with. I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be, here? You say that I, and other like-minded people, are just "average techies" despite literally just explaining that some of us too had our own challenges. I think it's okay to admit that nearly everybody has had their share of challenging backgrounds. Some people's privileges are the other's disadvantages and so on. That much is obvious. But aside from that. Backgrounds aside. Driving when you know you have a constant issue of falling asleep, getting drowsy, all of the above is unsafe. Even if you have priorities that you place above your own health/well-being, the problem with having those issues and still choosing to drive is that you are now deciding how others will be affected by your decision. The moment you begin endangering other people's lives is the same moment that backgrounds, poorly-disadvantaged or not, become meaningless. Because I highly doubt some victim's family is going to be impressed that you or someone else knowingly chose to drive repeatedly while acknowledging they would not be fully aware of what they were doing just because of working conditions.
  - missosoup 6y ago
    > The moment you begin endangering other people's lives is the same moment that backgrounds, poorly-disadvantaged or not, become meaningless. Spoken life someone who never had to decide between rolling the 0.000001% chance dice on driving to work tired, and their kids going hungry or potentially getting taken away if they lose their job. People do what they need to do to survive and take care of their loved ones. People will absolutely risk their lives and those of others in order to protect their kids at all cost, even when facing much worse odds. That's a constant in life. No amount of moral posturing will change that. I'm not saying their actions are 'right', just saying they're an inevitable outcome of the society we have built. Efficiently demonstrating my point - some people on HN live in a bubble of privilege and have no idea what real life is like for the vast majority of the population. I'm just curious, with all the moral posturing - realistically, what would you suggest that people do when after a long shift at a blue collar job they realize they might be too tired to safely drive home. Do they sleep at their workplace? How does that transition into them needing to be back at work, showered, dressed, etc. by 9am the next morning? What are the actual logistics of this concept here? And how do you reconcile all this moral posturing and the impact of banning drivers who experience this (up to 50% of the entire population of developed nations by some polling) vs. the fact that we now have a pretty cheap car technology that turns that 0.000001% dice roll into a 1e-20 one.

scarmig 6y ago

In an earlier life, I worked in the trucking industry. If you refused to drive anytime you were fatigued, you would not be successful in the industry (one reason I am very glad to not be doing that anymore; it's also one of the most dangerous occupations out there, partly for that reason). I think that lots of the people here have never worked a non-privileged job in their lives.

spike021 6y ago
I've seen the results of this first-hand when a big rig about 10 car lengths ahead of me on I-5 abruptly began moving from the right lane through the center median and into the lanes of oncoming traffic. He slammed into a pickup truck and killed that truck's occupant. I had to be called in as a witness of the incident by the victim and trucking company's attorneys. I think there's a strong difference between (rightfully so) blaming the companies that force this environment and the people who are just trying to make a living safely.