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The problem is, that like drunk driving, the person making the call doesn't always have the experience to know when they are impaired, or how close they are to

The problem is, that like drunk driving, the person making the call doesn't always have the experience to know when they are impaired, or how close they are to falling asleep. Then they can follow the same rule as for overtaking: if in doubt, don't. It's not complicated. There is no way you are tired enough to be actually falling asleep without realising you're far too tired to be driving safely. It's not as if it's a close thing where one minute you're alert and driving responsibly and the next minute you're out. Anyone who can't make that determination reliably is demonstrably unfit to be in charge of a vehicle and should hand in their licence.

simmanian 6y ago
Have you ever dozed off on the road? I ask because unless you've experienced it, it would probably catch you completely off guard as well. Sometimes the part of your brain that would normally make you aware that you're falling asleep is the first to go. I think this happens more while driving because you think you're concentrating on driving but really your brain is shutting off bit by bit until you're finally at a point where you're basically a mindless zombie. It's happened to me before and it absolutely caught me off guard.
- Silhouette 6y ago
  The thing is, to be susceptible to that kind of effect, a normal adult -- meaning one without an underlying medical condition -- would already have to be very short of good quality sleep and/or doing foolish things like driving for several hours at night without taking a break. It is not normal to be susceptible to just dozing off at the wheel without realising like that. If you are in that position, you should be aware of it, and should not be driving; you have just explained exactly why. The kinds of medical conditions that do make sudden dozing off normal for a few unfortunate people are grounds for refusing to issue a driving licence to those people in most places, for reasons that should hopefully be obvious.
  - fastball 6y ago
    These are pretty absolute terms you're talking in with little corresponding evidence. Monotonous activities frequently make people drowsy. This is not some medical condition, it is a common occurrence. Driving is often an acutely monotonous activity. I know a huge number of people that get drowsy while reading books. Do they all suffer from the same "condition"?
    - Silhouette 6y ago
      We weren't talking about merely being drowsy. We were talking about having a pattern of falling asleep at the wheel, and knowingly continuing to drive while unfit for that reason. It's right there in the top comment that started the thread.
      - kbenson 6y ago
        Who said there was a pattern and people continuing to drive after it happened once?
        Silhouette 6y ago
        It's right there in the top comment that started this whole thread.
        kbenson 6y ago
        That is not where the context of this thread is. My comment clearly changed it to how sometimes it can be hard to know, and how experiencing it once can be useful to knowing what that feeling it. You responded to it. The context at this point is not about repeating that, you're mixing your threads, and likely arguing against points people are not making but you think they are because of that mistake.
        Silhouette 6y ago
        Even if that is the case, my point stands. It is not normal to go from being a little tired to being so tired that you can actually fall asleep at the wheel just like that. I've done my share of long drives, including overnights across most of my country on occasion. If you're going to do something like that, you need to plan the journey sensibly, take plenty of breaks, make sure you got extra rest before you leave. Don't they teach this sort of stuff in basic driver training where you are?
kbenson 6y ago
> There is no way you are tired enough to be actually falling asleep without realising you're far too tired to be driving safely. Except I was, and I did. And now I can recognize the signs that weren't obvious before, so I don't anymore. You're saying there's no way, and I'm giving you a concrete example of an instance. > It's not as if it's a close thing where one minute you're alert and driving responsibly and the next minute you're out. There's a huge range between "alert" and "asleep". I'm tired after a long day, yet I can drive responsibly. Even a the point where I could lay down and easily go to sleep if I chose to, I'm fine to drive for quite a while after that (preferred sleep time is not necessarily the same as responsible driving time, there are many factors that go into it). > Anyone who can't make that determination reliably is demonstrably unfit to be in charge of a vehicle and should hand in their licence. So, have you been in that situation? Or just always stopped before you got to that point? Or not even driven over a long enough period to be in that situation? You haven't even presented any anecdotal evidence, you've just made assertions that what I said I personally experienced can't be how I described it (and implied I was demonstrably unfit to drive at the point I said this happened to me).
- Silhouette 6y ago
  I've been driving for decades, and I've had many of the problems other comments have mentioned that make life tough, and yet to my knowledge I have never fallen asleep at the wheel or caused any sort of accident. There certainly have been a few times when I was expecting to drive but clearly wasn't fit to and had to make other arrangements. And, in the gentlest possible way, if you were unable to recognise that you were so tired that you were likely to fall asleep while driving and make another choice, you were demonstrably unfit to drive at that time. It might have been understandable, particularly if you were young and inexperienced, but you still shouldn't have driven at that time and your actions were still irresponsible and dangerous. Anyway, I think I'm done with this discussion. There are several posters here who are literally arguing that it's OK to drive knowing that they are severely impaired and have a much greater risk than any normal person would of injuring or killing someone. I can't argue rationally against such an irresponsible and selfish position, and my blood pressure has probably gone through the roof reading all of these comments and thinking of all the people who would disagree with them but can't because they're dead.

simmanian 6y ago

Have you ever dozed off on the road? I ask because unless you've experienced it, it would probably catch you completely off guard as well. Sometimes the part of your brain that would normally make you aware that you're falling asleep is the first to go. I think this happens more while driving because you think you're concentrating on driving but really your brain is shutting off bit by bit until you're finally at a point where you're basically a mindless zombie. It's happened to me before and it absolutely caught me off guard.

Silhouette 6y ago
The thing is, to be susceptible to that kind of effect, a normal adult -- meaning one without an underlying medical condition -- would already have to be very short of good quality sleep and/or doing foolish things like driving for several hours at night without taking a break. It is not normal to be susceptible to just dozing off at the wheel without realising like that. If you are in that position, you should be aware of it, and should not be driving; you have just explained exactly why. The kinds of medical conditions that do make sudden dozing off normal for a few unfortunate people are grounds for refusing to issue a driving licence to those people in most places, for reasons that should hopefully be obvious.
- fastball 6y ago
  These are pretty absolute terms you're talking in with little corresponding evidence. Monotonous activities frequently make people drowsy. This is not some medical condition, it is a common occurrence. Driving is often an acutely monotonous activity. I know a huge number of people that get drowsy while reading books. Do they all suffer from the same "condition"?
  - Silhouette 6y ago
    We weren't talking about merely being drowsy. We were talking about having a pattern of falling asleep at the wheel, and knowingly continuing to drive while unfit for that reason. It's right there in the top comment that started the thread.
    - kbenson 6y ago
      Who said there was a pattern and people continuing to drive after it happened once?
      - Silhouette 6y ago
        It's right there in the top comment that started this whole thread.
        kbenson 6y ago
        That is not where the context of this thread is. My comment clearly changed it to how sometimes it can be hard to know, and how experiencing it once can be useful to knowing what that feeling it. You responded to it. The context at this point is not about repeating that, you're mixing your threads, and likely arguing against points people are not making but you think they are because of that mistake.
        Silhouette 6y ago
        Even if that is the case, my point stands. It is not normal to go from being a little tired to being so tired that you can actually fall asleep at the wheel just like that. I've done my share of long drives, including overnights across most of my country on occasion. If you're going to do something like that, you need to plan the journey sensibly, take plenty of breaks, make sure you got extra rest before you leave. Don't they teach this sort of stuff in basic driver training where you are?

kbenson 6y ago

> There is no way you are tired enough to be actually falling asleep without realising you're far too tired to be driving safely. Except I was, and I did. And now I can recognize the signs that weren't obvious before, so I don't anymore. You're saying there's no way, and I'm giving you a concrete example of an instance. > It's not as if it's a close thing where one minute you're alert and driving responsibly and the next minute you're out. There's a huge range between "alert" and "asleep". I'm tired after a long day, yet I can drive responsibly. Even a the point where I could lay down and easily go to sleep if I chose to, I'm fine to drive for quite a while after that (preferred sleep time is not necessarily the same as responsible driving time, there are many factors that go into it). > Anyone who can't make that determination reliably is demonstrably unfit to be in charge of a vehicle and should hand in their licence. So, have you been in that situation? Or just always stopped before you got to that point? Or not even driven over a long enough period to be in that situation? You haven't even presented any anecdotal evidence, you've just made assertions that what I said I personally experienced can't be how I described it (and implied I was demonstrably unfit to drive at the point I said this happened to me).

Silhouette 6y ago
I've been driving for decades, and I've had many of the problems other comments have mentioned that make life tough, and yet to my knowledge I have never fallen asleep at the wheel or caused any sort of accident. There certainly have been a few times when I was expecting to drive but clearly wasn't fit to and had to make other arrangements. And, in the gentlest possible way, if you were unable to recognise that you were so tired that you were likely to fall asleep while driving and make another choice, you were demonstrably unfit to drive at that time. It might have been understandable, particularly if you were young and inexperienced, but you still shouldn't have driven at that time and your actions were still irresponsible and dangerous. Anyway, I think I'm done with this discussion. There are several posters here who are literally arguing that it's OK to drive knowing that they are severely impaired and have a much greater risk than any normal person would of injuring or killing someone. I can't argue rationally against such an irresponsible and selfish position, and my blood pressure has probably gone through the roof reading all of these comments and thinking of all the people who would disagree with them but can't because they're dead.