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Would you accept that response as the reasoning of a judge after an incident? I wouldn't. I'd consider it criminal negligence to get behind the wheel of a car

by serf 6y ago

Would you accept that response as the reasoning of a judge after an incident? I wouldn't. I'd consider it criminal negligence to get behind the wheel of a car at times when it's impossible to make a suitable effort to drive such equipment. It's not acceptable to hop into a car drunk, either. The effects aren't really that much different between the two, response-time wise.

kbenson 6y ago
The problem is, that like drunk driving, the person making the call doesn't always have the experience to know when they are impaired, or how close they are to falling asleep. I've driven the family from Northern Califorina to Sourthern California quite a few times, many of them overnight. It took one instance of actually falling asleep at the wheel for a few seconds to realize "oh, that's the difference between tired and falling asleep at the wheel." I definitely recognize it now and never let it happen now (stopping and sleeping, trading out for someone else to drive, etc), but the point is I didn't think I was close to that level previously. Experience is something that we can't expect all people to have and exhibit the wisdom of, and unfortunately some things learned through experience are much harder (or nearly impossible) to teach without doing, and for dangerous things that's a problem for normal people. As a much much more extreme example, I've heard that's why Navy Seal training keeps candidates up and physically and mentally exhausted for days at a time. Partly to see who can handle the pressure, and partly so they have experienced that condition before and understand it in themselves and others.
- Silhouette 6y ago
  The problem is, that like drunk driving, the person making the call doesn't always have the experience to know when they are impaired, or how close they are to falling asleep. Then they can follow the same rule as for overtaking: if in doubt, don't. It's not complicated. There is no way you are tired enough to be actually falling asleep without realising you're far too tired to be driving safely. It's not as if it's a close thing where one minute you're alert and driving responsibly and the next minute you're out. Anyone who can't make that determination reliably is demonstrably unfit to be in charge of a vehicle and should hand in their licence.
  - simmanian 6y ago
    Have you ever dozed off on the road? I ask because unless you've experienced it, it would probably catch you completely off guard as well. Sometimes the part of your brain that would normally make you aware that you're falling asleep is the first to go. I think this happens more while driving because you think you're concentrating on driving but really your brain is shutting off bit by bit until you're finally at a point where you're basically a mindless zombie. It's happened to me before and it absolutely caught me off guard.
    - Silhouette 6y ago
      The thing is, to be susceptible to that kind of effect, a normal adult -- meaning one without an underlying medical condition -- would already have to be very short of good quality sleep and/or doing foolish things like driving for several hours at night without taking a break. It is not normal to be susceptible to just dozing off at the wheel without realising like that. If you are in that position, you should be aware of it, and should not be driving; you have just explained exactly why. The kinds of medical conditions that do make sudden dozing off normal for a few unfortunate people are grounds for refusing to issue a driving licence to those people in most places, for reasons that should hopefully be obvious.
      - fastball 6y ago
        These are pretty absolute terms you're talking in with little corresponding evidence. Monotonous activities frequently make people drowsy. This is not some medical condition, it is a common occurrence. Driving is often an acutely monotonous activity. I know a huge number of people that get drowsy while reading books. Do they all suffer from the same "condition"?
        Silhouette 6y ago
        We weren't talking about merely being drowsy. We were talking about having a pattern of falling asleep at the wheel, and knowingly continuing to drive while unfit for that reason. It's right there in the top comment that started the thread.
simmanian 6y ago
It's not as cut and dry as drinking and driving. A lot of times people who fall asleep on the road feel completely fine, until the moment they start falling asleep, and at this point their brain could be too asleep to tell it's falling asleep. I've dozed off on the road before and I can tell you, it's like someone just pressed the power button on my brain.

by serf 6y ago

kbenson 6y ago

The problem is, that like drunk driving, the person making the call doesn't always have the experience to know when they are impaired, or how close they are to falling asleep. I've driven the family from Northern Califorina to Sourthern California quite a few times, many of them overnight. It took one instance of actually falling asleep at the wheel for a few seconds to realize "oh, that's the difference between tired and falling asleep at the wheel." I definitely recognize it now and never let it happen now (stopping and sleeping, trading out for someone else to drive, etc), but the point is I didn't think I was close to that level previously. Experience is something that we can't expect all people to have and exhibit the wisdom of, and unfortunately some things learned through experience are much harder (or nearly impossible) to teach without doing, and for dangerous things that's a problem for normal people. As a much much more extreme example, I've heard that's why Navy Seal training keeps candidates up and physically and mentally exhausted for days at a time. Partly to see who can handle the pressure, and partly so they have experienced that condition before and understand it in themselves and others.

Silhouette 6y ago
The problem is, that like drunk driving, the person making the call doesn't always have the experience to know when they are impaired, or how close they are to falling asleep. Then they can follow the same rule as for overtaking: if in doubt, don't. It's not complicated. There is no way you are tired enough to be actually falling asleep without realising you're far too tired to be driving safely. It's not as if it's a close thing where one minute you're alert and driving responsibly and the next minute you're out. Anyone who can't make that determination reliably is demonstrably unfit to be in charge of a vehicle and should hand in their licence.
- simmanian 6y ago
  Have you ever dozed off on the road? I ask because unless you've experienced it, it would probably catch you completely off guard as well. Sometimes the part of your brain that would normally make you aware that you're falling asleep is the first to go. I think this happens more while driving because you think you're concentrating on driving but really your brain is shutting off bit by bit until you're finally at a point where you're basically a mindless zombie. It's happened to me before and it absolutely caught me off guard.
  - Silhouette 6y ago
    The thing is, to be susceptible to that kind of effect, a normal adult -- meaning one without an underlying medical condition -- would already have to be very short of good quality sleep and/or doing foolish things like driving for several hours at night without taking a break. It is not normal to be susceptible to just dozing off at the wheel without realising like that. If you are in that position, you should be aware of it, and should not be driving; you have just explained exactly why. The kinds of medical conditions that do make sudden dozing off normal for a few unfortunate people are grounds for refusing to issue a driving licence to those people in most places, for reasons that should hopefully be obvious.
    - fastball 6y ago
      These are pretty absolute terms you're talking in with little corresponding evidence. Monotonous activities frequently make people drowsy. This is not some medical condition, it is a common occurrence. Driving is often an acutely monotonous activity. I know a huge number of people that get drowsy while reading books. Do they all suffer from the same "condition"?
      - Silhouette 6y ago
        We weren't talking about merely being drowsy. We were talking about having a pattern of falling asleep at the wheel, and knowingly continuing to drive while unfit for that reason. It's right there in the top comment that started the thread.

simmanian 6y ago

It's not as cut and dry as drinking and driving. A lot of times people who fall asleep on the road feel completely fine, until the moment they start falling asleep, and at this point their brain could be too asleep to tell it's falling asleep. I've dozed off on the road before and I can tell you, it's like someone just pressed the power button on my brain.